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I Have the New Genotype Book  This thread currently has 11,960 views. Print Print Thread
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Dr. D
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 12:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
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Quoted from Andrew


Sorry, I should have expanded my "a little perspective is suggested":

My perspective was that for differences of less than 1/16" between the finger lengths, the inaccuracies of measuring overwhelm the difference in finger lengths and that no verdict can be reached regarding this rather vital question.

I think that we are closer on this than it appears. If the determination comes down to a choice based on a minute measurement (i.e. less than 1/16") then "Houston, we have a problem."

It would appear from this thread that a decision on a choice between 2 lifestyles / diets may be based on a difference of less 1/16", for something that is not easily, nor accurately measured.

I do not know the science behind this, but at this time I think that we have missed / overlooked / misinterpreted something.

Your suggestion to consider other factors when the difference between finger length is very small, is logical and well considered.

In due course, I am sure that Dr. D or Dr. Natalie will be able to clarify the situation.

Hugs
Andrew




I think we just have to trust to human nature on this one.

For example, margins of error. In general people will make the same degree of error throughout an endeavor. In other words, if you do cabinetry to a tolerance of 1/16 of an inch, you will work at that tolerance throughout the project. Others will work at 1/8" or 1/4" or whatever.

Since most of these measurements are relative indexes (comparing one number to another), these levels of tolerance remain fairly consistent. Perhaps the only thing I can add to the discussion is that our tests showed that with a small millimeter based ruler (and even the ones in the states have mm on one side), almost everyone was accurate within 2-3 millimeters.

Carried over, a D2 and D4 (each within a scope of +/- 2 millimeters) should do just fine. Other issues (like webbing) while not unimportant, were not seen as non-starters as long as the person did not separate the fingers in a wide, clonic or 'rigid' manner, and even then if they used the same technique (even an incorrect one) on both fingers, the results were still  pretty accurate.

Also, in evaluating the results from the clinic studies it was easy to see why ties (or even close neck and neck issues) should go to the index finger. True androgenic types have way longer ring fingers; a distinction often obvious enough to preclude a  any need for measurement whatsoever. My personal take on this is that while there are thousands of estrogenizing xenobiotics (man made chemicals) in the environment, there are not too many xenobiotic androgens in the environment. Again, pure supposition, but I feel that rather than lengthening D2, these estrogenizing xenobiotics shorten or stunt D4.

In English subtitles:

In doing the measurements, it is more important to be consistent than accurate. If you are accurate you can be right for the right reason. If you are consistent, you can not only be right for the right reason, you can be right for the wrong reason as well.



A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand

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Dr. D  -  Sunday, December 30, 2007, 12:45pm
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funkymuse
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 2:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Well we haven't done our measurements yet but it looks as though hubby A is a Teacher and I am completely in the dark wobbling 50/50 between Explorer and Hunter.

So the measurements will reveal all hopefully.  The thing is, is that I have ALL the issues listed for the hunter when it comes to inflammation, etc., and the food feels right except for the fact the food lists show I can have coffee if I am well.  

So that brings up the more important issue here which is since I have osteoarthritis do I still follow the BT Arthritis Book Food lists?  Or stick to the superfoods and diamond foods in the Geno type Book?  

I mean are we replacing the BT lists now with the GT lists?
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Beckyb
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 3:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am fearfully and wonderfully made Ps.139:14
Kyosha Nim
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Great questions, funkymuse. I'm wondering the same thing.

Martha says we can e-mail questions to Dr. D - what e-mail address should we use for this purpose? Do we use "Ask Dr. D" on the Home page?

By the way,I ordered a copy of the GTD for my mom from Overstock.com and it arrived around December 13th!!

My Mom and I had fun taking our measurements over the Christmas break. Lots of exciting things to look forward to


Rh+,Mesomorph,Gatherer, BTD since 1998.
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Lloyd
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 3:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from Dr. D


In English subtitles:

In doing the measurements, it is more important to be consistent than accurate. If you are accurate you can be right for the right reason. If you are consistent, you can not only be right for the right reason, you can be right for the wrong reason as well.



Without having run the numbers, it seems to me that even small differences in D2 and D4 (such as .5 mm) are statistically significant (for the purpose of determining which is longer) assuming consistent measurement technique. A casual (rather than rigorous) observation without knowledge of error distribution curves or directionality of error suggest a reasonable confidence level on the order of roughly one standard deviation. For larger differences (say 1 mm) the confidence level is obviously much higher.

Revision History (3 edits)
Lloyd  -  Sunday, December 30, 2007, 4:08pm
Lloyd  -  Sunday, December 30, 2007, 4:00pm
Lloyd  -  Sunday, December 30, 2007, 3:46pm
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Whimsical
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 4:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
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In my case, if I use the shown technique and ties go to the index, I am a Gatherer.  

What would you do if you typed a patient as one type, but they identify better with another, both mentally and physically?  

I guess I'm kind of hung up on the description of the Gatherer, because I am nowhere near an endomorph (more ecto-meso) - when I was a child I ate lots of junk I was always underweight, I am not "padded looking" (I have visible tendons), I don't have the molar cusp, I'm not an early adopter, I'm restless - not good at prolonged and concentrated brain work, and I don't put on weight easily (even when eating poorly and not exercising).   Even personality-wise, as much as I would like to be "sweet-natured", I don't think most people would describe me that way!  

The attributes of Explorer seem to fit me better: non-matching index fingers (while all my other digits match), spade-like incisors, sensitive to caffeine, liver issues, problem-solver, good memory, visual simultaneous, more athletic build, quirky.  When I strength tested, I came out stronger as an Explorer, but I'm not exceptionally strong for either.  

The finger-length measurement is the key thing here, and my ring fingers are not obviously longer.  I plan to double check that I am indeed Rh+, because if I am Rh-, that makes me an Explorer despite the finger lengths.  

Do the finger measurements trump all else?  What would you do at the clinic with someone like me?


MIFHI E-185
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Gumby
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 5:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My hubby is a classic mesomorph and he is a gatherer.  I was unsure about it, but some things fit, particularly the high blood pressure in the family issues.  There is a lot that does not fit, but the measurements don't lie.  And if he sees me come at him with the tapemeasure again to check for the kajillionth time, he will have me committed.   


Embracing my A-ness! (Ok, that is waaaay better in print than it is out loud! )

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Gumby
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 5:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Sorry, forgot to add Kate that I feel for you in having one close measurement hing on the difference!  That would make me crazy.  We were lucky because the finger length did not turn out to matter in the charts.  Which made me feel a LOT better.  Did not stop me from obsessively measuring them , but it made me feel better.  I hope you can get this sorted out soon for your peace of mind.


Embracing my A-ness! (Ok, that is waaaay better in print than it is out loud! )

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Kristin
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 5:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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My finger measurements are questionable too... I measured several times and even at the IfHI conference they had difficulty getting an accurate measurement. But I feel fortunate that for me, the finger lengths are not a determining placement factor. I am a nomad no matter what the measurements are.

Quoted from Victoria
Boy, can I ever relate to your post, Lloyd.  I feel like a Nomad, am a B positive nonnie, have green eyes and upper leg longer than the lower, but my torso is longer than my legs and my bones are small...


I really don't match much of the nomad body type characteristics either... except for the "extremely tall" one... and height perception is quite subjective anyway. But I am not a mesomorph, big boned, muscular, nor brachycephalic... in fact I am quite the opposite. But it seems the measurements, along with blood type, secretor and Rh status are the genotype determinants.  




The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

- Nelson Henderson
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funkymuse
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 5:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Well the shocking results are in!  What we thought we were, WE ARE NOT!

Hubby turns out to be a Warrior on the Intermediate testing and I'm a Gatherer on the Advanced testing.

NO matter what chart I look at, if my index fingers are longer, not matter what the other measurements are, I am a Gatherer.

Like Whimsical, I do not feel like an Endomorph.  I am more ecto-meso with small bones and tendons appearing.  

I have horrid inflammation issues - osteoarthritis... (which could be genetic from Mother); but that lead one to lean toward Hunter, and so on and so forth.

I'm completely at odds with some of the diet recommendations for the Gatherer.  I thought for sure, based on my current disease processes that I was a Hunter.  But my index on one hand is longer than the ring; and the ring and index on the other are the same length which defaults to the  index being longer.

Arggh!  I thought this was going to be an easy thing!  Wow... huge adaptations to make if indeed I am a gatherer.

As well, I can taste those damn bitter compounds in the greens!  Which also leans itself away from being a gatherer.  To get the greens down, I have to put Agave Nectur on them!  

If anyone has any thoughts or words of wisdom for me as I struggle to accept this 'gatherer' sentence (ha), please send um on... !
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Whimsical
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 5:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Gumby
Sorry, forgot to add Kate that I feel for you in having one close measurement hing on the difference!  That would make me crazy.  We were lucky because the finger length did not turn out to matter in the charts.  Which made me feel a LOT better.  Did not stop me from obsessively measuring them , but it made me feel better.  I hope you can get this sorted out soon for your peace of mind.


All my other measurements are clear, so if it this hard to tell if my ring finger is longer, I guess that makes it a tie.  Which makes me a Gatherer.

Diet-wise, I don't really mind either - I gain some, I lose some both ways.  I just want to feel confident that I have the correct Genotype.  


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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jayneeo
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 5:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh- Gatherer
Kyosha Nim
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well, funkymuse, I am a gatherer but have osteoarthritis bad in my hands, but the other issues  like diabetes, and whatever that go with gatherer run in my family, so, I'll just have to work on the hands as best I can....any ideas? (like what do you do?)
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funkymuse
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 6:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from jayneeo
well, funkymuse, I am a gatherer but have osteoarthritis bad in my hands, but the other issues  like diabetes, and whatever that go with gatherer run in my family, so, I'll just have to work on the hands as best I can....any ideas? (like what do you do?)


I don't know much about my family history.  My mom is full of osteoarthritis and lupus and there has been cancer... but no diabetes as far as I know.  

And in delving into the book deeper, it seems I need to really strength test and this brings me to a problem we had measuring my leg.

I have extra padding on my hips and upper thighs, so it is hard to find the ending measurement point.  When it comes to strength testing this measurement is crucial on the charts...

Can anyone help me with this issue about how to find where to stop the measurement at the top of the thigh since we cannot find the indentation that Dr. D. mentions in this test?
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Lola
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 6:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
I can have coffee if I am well.

Quoted Text
I have osteoarthritis do I still follow the BT Arthritis Book Food lists?  Or stick to the superfoods and diamond foods in the Geno type Book?  

I mean are we replacing the BT lists now with the GT lists?

I believe you just answered your own question.....


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Gumby
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 6:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Quoted from 1323

Can anyone help me with this issue about how to find where to stop the measurement at the top of the thigh since we cannot find the indentation that Dr. D. mentions in this test?


I think it is more of a skin crease than an indentation at the top of the thigh.  Padding should not interfere with that...you might just have to scooch the end of the tape in there to get to the actual crease.   Or, lift up the 'overhang' slightly lol.  That is what I did, to make sure I had the start of the tape right on the crease.  No digging required.


Embracing my A-ness! (Ok, that is waaaay better in print than it is out loud! )

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drgnwng1
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 6:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I google legs and skeleton so I could see exactly what they wanted for the groove as well as watched the video. Even if I am off my upper leg is 4" longer then my lower so even an inch is no big deal for me. The lower I sat then stetched itand pointed and the top of the bone hurt when I hit it so I know it was the top.
Yep pick up the overhang and stick one end in that space and bring it down to the top of the groove. (lift ,stick and measure)
Jean


0+ Gatherer
married to prob an A
A- kid Explorer
A+ kid Warrior
I'm always odd one out!
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funkymuse
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 8:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Well I measured the leg and found out some vital info.  In the strength testing due to my new leg measurement, I was to test for an Explorer and a Gatherer.  I'm scoring high in the Explorer division.  So I'm going to do the fingerprint test next.

It's so strange cause I'm not an O negative as many explorers are but I have many more of the Explorer physical traits than of the Gatherer.  So for now until I can get my fingerprints tested I'm going with the Explorer.

Plus alot of things in the Gatherer diet offend my tummy.
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Dr. Natalie Colicci
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 9:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Whimsical
In my case, if I use the shown technique and ties go to the index, I am a Gatherer.  

What would you do if you typed a patient as one type, but they identify better with another, both mentally and physically?  

I guess I'm kind of hung up on the description of the Gatherer, because I am nowhere near an endomorph (more ecto-meso) - when I was a child I ate lots of junk I was always underweight, I am not "padded looking" (I have visible tendons), I don't have the molar cusp, I'm not an early adopter, I'm restless - not good at prolonged and concentrated brain work, and I don't put on weight easily (even when eating poorly and not exercising).   Even personality-wise, as much as I would like to be "sweet-natured", I don't think most people would describe me that way!  

The attributes of Explorer seem to fit me better: non-matching index fingers (while all my other digits match), spade-like incisors, sensitive to caffeine, liver issues, problem-solver, good memory, visual simultaneous, more athletic build, quirky.  When I strength tested, I came out stronger as an Explorer, but I'm not exceptionally strong for either.  

The finger-length measurement is the key thing here, and my ring fingers are not obviously longer.  I plan to double check that I am indeed Rh+, because if I am Rh-, that makes me an Explorer despite the finger lengths.  

Do the finger measurements trump all else?  What would you do at the clinic with someone like me?


I think people are getting hung up on "fitting" a genotype.  To answer your question Kate, at the clinic, you would be placed on the diet in which you were genotyped into.  And since you are an individual in addition to being a Gatherer, your individualized health needs would be address to design a protocol for Kate the Gatherer...

BTW, I have seen plenty of lean and fit Gatherers.  
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Amazone I.
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 9:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh+ GT 4...E/..INTJ ....prop.=non-taster..
Kyosha Nim
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as being a warrior, sorry I don't have ansoft oval face, nor was I ok in childhood...I don't remember that well about childhood, I only remember that it seems I've got heartproblems, was a super tinny whatsoever...but nothing resembling to a human...and huh...beautiful...ahem very far from this ...
yess I was and I am still choleric ...I recognize one of my biig bad issues ...and I learned how to relax with *autogenes trainig* from massr Schulz and also visualizing ....I am not dolchocephalic... he put me into ...ahem what....something likewise a mops .... am I really mopslike ........AND I am really assemmetrical!!! bh !!!....fttt.....as being a nonnie, sorry I can't accomplish that I am looking older as I am ..... the contrary is truth ....,and it seems that I am a bit overloaden with testosterones ....
yummy with that I can get 250 years old ...laaaa.....
what I remarked is and was...when I go for toughy sports I get immediately musscles likewise a man...and I feel that I am a female...but  a bit larger in hips and back...AND I can't accept to move on malewise arrgh...
and I do feel now...coz of being a little bit more familiar to all types...like a nomade...baaa....hh...
I will stick to my A2B nonniefoods...what else ....


hey.....all.... do you remember in lr4yt...that our beloved doc told us NOT to get....attached to ...whatsoever .....eeehhh.....I'm getting stiff
here


MIfHI K-174
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Whimsical
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 9:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from 1323
Well I measured the leg and found out some vital info.  In the strength testing due to my new leg measurement, I was to test for an Explorer and a Gatherer.  I'm scoring high in the Explorer division.  So I'm going to do the fingerprint test next.

It's so strange cause I'm not an O negative as many explorers are but I have many more of the Explorer physical traits than of the Gatherer.  So for now until I can get my fingerprints tested I'm going with the Explorer.

Plus alot of things in the Gatherer diet offend my tummy.


According to the advanced tables in the back of the book, no matter what your measurements, it appears that if you are an O+ secretor, you are either a Gatherer or a Hunter.


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Whimsical
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 9:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from 12


I think people are getting hung up on "fitting" a genotype.  To answer your question Kate, at the clinic, you would be placed on the diet in which you were genotyped into.  And since you are an individual in addition to being a Gatherer, your individualized health needs would be address to design a protocol for Kate the Gatherer...

BTW, I have seen plenty of lean and fit Gatherers.  


Thanks for the reply - that is pretty much where I've settled anyway.  I'm lucky to have all possible information to input into the online calculator, and with that and my ambiguous fingers, I come out a Gatherer, albeit not a super-strong one.

Like I said, I'm going to double check that I am indeed Rh+ (since I found that out a LONG time ago!).  Looking at the food lists, the Gatherer diet seems to suit me better too, as I know that I am sensitive to sugar and high glycemic foods and I like lots of protein in my diet.  I am sad to have to downplay broccoli and kale, though, as I was eating both of those daily.  However, based on the Gatherer metabolism, it makes sense since those are possible goitrogens.


MIFHI E-185
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jayneeo
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 9:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh- Gatherer
Kyosha Nim
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welcome, Kate! I truly think the gatherer diet is an appealing one. I have had cottage cheese twice this week....(I've missed it so) and the fish choices are quite favorable compared to the other type you mentioned. (sorry, whomever) this more finely tuned diet has given me hope for the weight loss that still needs resolving. (lucky for you , thats not your issue!)
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Gumby
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 9:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Mary M.
Hi, Gumby,
Your description of attempting to measure your hubby again started my day out with a hearty laugh. Thank you.

Margaret


  The man has the patience of a saint...and yet, I push the envelope lol!


Embracing my A-ness! (Ok, that is waaaay better in print than it is out loud! )

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Gumby
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Quoted from drgnwng1

(lift ,stick and measure)
Jean


Everytime I read this, Jean, it makes me giggle...especially the accompanying visual.


Embracing my A-ness! (Ok, that is waaaay better in print than it is out loud! )

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sluggerbean
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I, too, used the online calculator to put in all the information I had.  Even with my very close fingers, I came out as a Hunter,even though I have large bones and am more of an endomorph.  

I got to thinking about it and realized that I have had joint pain for several years, but I have such a high tolerance for pain that I simply ignore it most of the time.  My hip right now has been really hurting.  I didn't really notice it until after I stopped exercising and had put on about 15 more pounds, and after the last several visits to the chiropractor(I go every two weeks) where the hip has been out.  Plus, whenever I am not compliant(as has been the case for the past 2 1/2 months), my allergies really act up and I get sinus infections.  My allergies have been terrible the past few weeks. Before BTD, I had recurring sinus infections that didn't clear up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though I have the obesity, high blood pressure, and family history of diabetes of the Gatherer; I have more of the symptoms of a Hunter who is seriously out of whack.


Peggy

Never run faster than your guardian angel can fly.
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funkymuse
Sunday, December 30, 2007, 10:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Whimsical


According to the advanced tables in the back of the book, no matter what your measurements, it appears that if you are an O+ secretor, you are either a Gatherer or a Hunter.


Yes but my index fingers are both longer than my ring fingers which would place me in the Gatherer catagory only.  

See Advanced Geno Type Calculator: Table Two

My Torso is longer than my legs
My lower leg is longer and/or equal than my upper leg
My index fingers are longer than my ring fingers.

Are you considered a Gatherer only?  If so, do the strength tests matter at all if you have been catagorized as a gatherer by the Advanced Tables - anyone?
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