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Are all "avoids" created equal?  This thread currently has 2,922 views. Print Print Thread
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chud
Thursday, July 19, 2012, 3:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j


"Chicken causes strokes" is a serious statement. But "Chicken has been proved to be associated with pathological blood clots in type B individuals" (if indeed proved) would be a more responsible and credible alternative...


Well most strokes are clotting strokes (ischemic), so I think you just answered your own question.  

If you have a problem with people saying "chicken causes strokes" rather than "chicken can lead to conditions that cause stroke in some blood types", well ok...whatever; I can see your point, but this is a discussion forum, not a peer-reviewed medical journal.  All of us are going to share our experiences based on our reactions to certain foods.
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ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 19, 2012, 6:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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It's clear to me that most lectins cause subtle, not obvious, health problems. Keep eating lots of lectins, over time, and health problems can develop. Some people are strong enough or lucky enough to never develop health problems in spite of a lectin-rich diet. If it was something as obvious as most people having strokes after eating one chicken nugget, then chicken would be considered "poison" and not "food." Even the most lectin-rich foods are better than starvation!

Most people can eat a meal containing chicken and have no obvious reactions to it, even if subtle damage is occurring inside. A lot of the damage caused by lectins is  considered "what happens when we grow older" and not something preventable via diet.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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san j
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Quoted from chud


Well most strokes are clotting strokes (ischemic), so I think you just answered your own question.  

If you have a problem with people saying "chicken causes strokes" rather than "chicken can lead to conditions that cause stroke in some blood types", well ok...whatever; I can see your point, but this is a discussion forum, not a peer-reviewed medical journal.  All of us are going to share our experiences based on our reactions to certain foods.


Fine with me, luv, but then don't question "why people find the BTD wacko" or start threads here called "So hard to convince people to try the BTD", as is running now, concurrent with this one. If we want them to come to this forum to learn what Dr. D'Adamo says and doesn't say, we should refrain from extrapolating upon his findings to saying such things, calling "stroke" "our reactions to certain foods", such as chicken. Instant log-off, IMO. And I wouldn't blame them.



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san j  -  Thursday, July 19, 2012, 8:33pm
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chud
Thursday, July 19, 2012, 8:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Well said ruthiegirl.

Quoted from ruthiegirl
It's clear to me that most lectins cause subtle, not obvious, health problems. Keep eating lots of lectins, over time, and health problems can develop. Some people are strong enough or lucky enough to never develop health problems in spite of a lectin-rich diet. If it was something as obvious as most people having strokes after eating one chicken nugget, then chicken would be considered "poison" and not "food." Even the most lectin-rich foods are better than starvation!

Most people can eat a meal containing chicken and have no obvious reactions to it, even if subtle damage is occurring inside. A lot of the damage caused by lectins is  considered "what happens when we grow older" and not something preventable via diet.

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ABJoe
Thursday, July 19, 2012, 8:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j
Please direct us to the evidence that the ingestion of chicken causes a stroke in individuals with bloodtype B.

Quoted from ER4YT, Pg. 148-9
Chicken may be leaner (although not always) than red meat, but that isn't the issue.  The issue is the power of an agglutinating lectin to attack your bloodstream and potentially lead to strokes and immune disorders.  So, even though chicken may be a beloved food, I urge you to begin weaning yourself away from it.

This statement is adequate for me to believe that "Chicken can cause strokes in Type B people."
Quoted from ER4YT, Pg. 189
The lectin that irritates the blood and digestive tracts of Type Bs has the same effect on you (ABs), so stay away from chicken.

This warning is even stronger than in the B section of the book...

I would venture that if you read the references listed under "Disease associations with blood type", ER4YT page 374, you would find the information substantiating the concern Dr. D. shows in warning the Type Bs and ABs away from the lectin contained in chicken.



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chud
Thursday, July 19, 2012, 8:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text


The issue is the power of an agglutinating lectin to attack your bloodstream and potentially lead to STROKES and immune disorders.



Thanks for that quote ABjoe.  Case closed.
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Tom Martens
Saturday, July 21, 2012, 1:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Can't we just say that an avoid is an avoid?  Allowing avoids to become black dots or "ok" after "x" amount of time has caused too much confusion and rancor.  

Keeping it simple is always best.


Be who you are.  Those who mind don't matter, those who matter won't mind.

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san j
Saturday, July 21, 2012, 1:58am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Tom Martens
Can't we just say that an avoid is an avoid?  Allowing avoids to become black dots or "ok" after "x" amount of time has caused too much confusion and rancor.  

Keeping it simple is always best.


Dr. D'Adamo is the one who instituted the "black dot" system. So why should "we" ignore that?  

Yes, Individuality confuses some people, who may prefer laws in black and white, and a "100% compliance level" for all. Your statement that "Keeping it simple is always best" would be appropriate for people who have trouble coping with complexity but isn't "simple" for everyone.  

My guess is that Dr. D'Adamo has a broad enough clinical clientele to know that a great deal of variation has to be taken into account.



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marjorie
Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:00am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I very rarely eat any avoids but I have celiac, so I have not had wheat in 12 years. I also think that corn and potatoes put weight on me fast and quick inflammation.

It takes time to figure out what works best for you, but the swami says it all. Just use it as a nice guideline, and then follow your "gut".
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san j
Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi, ABJoe.
Thanks for taking the time to help with this matter.
Let's look at it.
Quoted Text
The issue is the power of an agglutinating lectin to attack your bloodstream and potentially lead to strokes and immune disorders.  So, even though chicken may be a beloved food, I urge you to begin weaning yourself away from it.


Quoted from ABJoe
This statement is adequate for me to believe that "Chicken can cause strokes in Type B people."




People tell me: "I can't drink red wine. It causes me to have headaches."
Others say, "I can't drink milk; it causes too much mucus to build up."
Others say, "I can't drink coffee: It causes insomnia."
Others say, "I can't eat nightshades; they cause painful joints."

But I've never heard anyone say, "Aunt Sue ate a piece of roast chicken, and it caused her to have a stroke."

Why is this an important distinction to make?

The majority of the world's Bs eat chicken. The majority of the world's Bs do not have strokes. Do you see what I'm saying?

And also: Though one particular B may be very susceptible to the nefarious chicken lectin, another may be considerably less so. Dr. D'Adamo would certainly concur with this, having accorded chicken a "black dot" for Nomads, who are all ABs and Bs.

So the problems here, ABJoe, and thanks again for your diligence, are:
1. the inaccuracy of that statement that chicken causes stroke in Bs, and
2. the assumption that all B's respond equally pathologically (and indeed catastrophically!) to the chicken lectin.

All I'm asking is that we lighten up on the catastrophic rhetoric AND remember the primacy of Individuality, even within the D'Adamo orbit. (I'm, frankly, surprised that the über-individualism inculcated by the SWAMI philosophy hasn't rubbed off on its proponents!  )

PS Add/edit:
Here's another reason this is an important distinction.
You rightly quote Dr. D'Adamo as urging Bs to "begin weaning [themselves] away from [chicken]."

Let's consider cigarettes for a minute, because all agree that cigarette smoking is deleterious to the health of everyone.
But there is a difference between the person who has a pack-a-day habit and the one who smokes once after Thanksgiving dinner and once after Christmas dinner, say. Twice a year.
The former may be very seriously curtailing his lifespan. The latter is far less likely to be doing so.

In the case of Bs vis-à-vis chicken: Most Americans who eat meat are consuming chicken several times a week or thereabout. At least a few times a week. There are Bs who have taken Dr. D'Adamo's teachings to heart, however, and have cut down their chicken intake to once or twice a month, thus consuming far, far, far less chicken than virtually all other carnivorous Americans. Telling them "eating chicken causes strokes in Bs" is as true as telling the twice-a-year smoker that "cigarette smoking will shorten your life". Do you get it yet?
I really hope so, because I long ago made my point.
Thanks for your interest.  









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Revision History (4 edits)
san j  -  Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:27am
san j  -  Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:25am
san j  -  Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:17am
san j  -  Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:16am
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ABJoe
Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:35am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j
But I've never heard anyone say, "Aunt Sue ate a piece of roast chicken, and it caused her to have a stroke."

Why is this an important distinction to make?

The majority of the world's Bs eat chicken. The majority of the world's Bs do not have strokes. Do you see what I'm saying?

And also: Though one particular B may be very susceptible to the nefarious chicken lectin, another may be considerably less so. Dr. D'Adamo would certainly concur with this, having accorded chicken a "black dot" for Nomads, who are all ABs and Bs.

So the problems here, ABJoe, and thanks again for your diligence, are:
1. the inaccuracy of that statement that chicken causes stroke in Bs, and
2. the assumption that all B's respond equally pathologically (and indeed catastrophically!) to the chicken lectin.

Since I have heard of a Type AB having (3) TIA's immediately following several chicken meals, I will continue to say what I have said.  Yes, this individual had already had a major stroke, so had a propensity for more stroke activity.

You cringe from the strength of the terms, but in case of a sick person not having followed BTD or GTD, I believe it to be justified.

As Dr. D. stated in a thread today(across 2 posts), if a Nomad has been following the diet for some time, his liver should be strong enough to handle small amounts of chicken lectin as a hormetic response.
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1342596967/s-40/#num32
Otherwise, I'll continue to state that the potential exists for sick Type B individuals to suffer stroke after eating chicken.


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ABJoe  -  Saturday, July 21, 2012, 2:51am
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san j
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Quoted from ABJoe
Since I have heard of a Type AB having (3) TIA's immediately following several chicken meals, I will continue to say what I have said.  Yes, this individual had already had a major stroke, so had a propensity for more stroke activity.


Aw, shucks, ABJoe. I had really hoped that, since you'd gone to the trouble of actually providing, sort of, references, that the level of discourse here had risen above the anecdotal. But, in the end, that's what you base your conclusion on.

For you, as an individual, that's certainly fine with me. But a perusal of the posts on this thread says that most here are willing to state that even individuals who share a bloodtype or a genotype can be expected to differ widely with respect to which Avoids cause them any sort of real trouble, that being the subject of this thread, don't forget. I'm willing to respect that and corroborate it. I also share D'Adamo's work with the curious in such a way that emphasizes it.

I guess I'm just...an Individual. Hear, hear!  


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ABJoe
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Quoted from san j


Aw, shucks, ABJoe. I had really hoped that, since you'd gone to the trouble of actually providing, sort of, references, that the level of discourse here had risen above the anecdotal. But, in the end, that's what you base your conclusion on.

So it's OK for you to use lack of anecdotal as basis for your point, but not for me to use as basis for mine?

Also, I could see your vehemence if I said "Eating chicken WILL lead to stroke.", but to say there is some correlation or that it is possible for chicken to precipitate a stroke is what Dr. D. said in the book.


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Possum
Saturday, July 21, 2012, 4:58am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Careful now, with all this arguing, someone might have a stroke
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chud
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Quoted from ABJoe

So it's OK for you to use lack of anecdotal as basis for your point, but not for me to use as basis for mine?


I agree with ABjoe.  We are free to express our opinions, and don't have to do so according to SanJ's criteria.  She seems to think she's the moderator of this forum.

Quoted from ABJoe
Also, I could see your vehemence if I said "Eating chicken WILL lead to stroke.", but to say there is some correlation or that it is possible for chicken to precipitate a stroke is what Dr. D. said in the book.


Absolutely right.  Here is the quote again:

"The issue is the power of an agglutinating lectin to attack your bloodstream and potentially lead to strokes and immune disorders."
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Goldie
Monday, July 23, 2012, 3:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I see all avoids as not good for me, but should I eat this or that, because I just can't help myself..

I don't hang my head in shame nor make me crazy..

What I DO, is take full responsibility for my action and not blame the diet on my feeling badly and bad I will feel, bloated, or sleepy or constipated..

all avoids are not equal.. but they do require self evaluation..  and four times a year even avoids in small 'measures' will not kill anyone..

I think 100% adherence would be ill advised, it might speak of mental constipation.. Live and live well is my motto.. IT HAS worked just fine..

UNLESS someone comes up with a better drop weight protocol.. for that I would be pleased to make changes.. and that is how I do change things around.. adding or subtracting, but unless I see big results, I soon go back to what I know will at least keep me healthy..  


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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Quoted from Possum
Careful now, with all this arguing, someone might have a stroke




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2degreespisces
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Quoted from san j

Why is this an important distinction to make?

The majority of the world's Bs eat chicken. The majority of the world's Bs do not have strokes. Do you see what I'm saying?

And also: Though one particular B may be very susceptible to the nefarious chicken lectin, another may be considerably less so. Dr. D'Adamo would certainly concur with this, having accorded chicken a "black dot" for Nomads, who are all ABs and Bs.

....

All I'm asking is that we lighten up on the catastrophic rhetoric AND remember the primacy of Individuality, even within the D'Adamo orbit. (I'm, frankly, surprised that the über-individualism inculcated by the SWAMI philosophy hasn't rubbed off on its proponents!  )



This, in a nutshell, is what the entire discussion boils down to in my opinion.
I entirely agree with san j's statements as quoted; and even for those who are not yet on the individualized SWAMI-level: there is no food that gives a 100% disease rate, for any blood type.

So even if you stick with BTD, we're talking about tendencies and statistics over large groups of people, never about a 1-on-1 cause and effect between one food and any disease.
(Except in the case of allergies and heightened sensitivities of course, but the "chicken debate" isn't about that.)


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chud
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Quoted Text


"The issue is the power of an agglutinating lectin to attack your bloodstream and potentially lead to strokes and immune disorders."  (Dr. Peter D'Adamo)
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Quoted from 2degreespisces
So even if you stick with BTD, we're talking about tendencies and statistics over large groups of people, never about a 1-on-1 cause and effect between one food and any disease.


I think there are some mushrooms that can cause fatal liver failure within a few hours of consumption. Those are considered "poisonous" rather than "edible" mushrooms though.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Quoted from ruthiegirl


I think there are some mushrooms that can cause fatal liver failure within a few hours of consumption. Those are considered "poisonous" rather than "edible" mushrooms though.


Sure, and there are types of fish that kill you if they're badly prepared, if I'm not mistaken   Although mostly it's the Japanese who eat those  

However, that's not the same thing as the relationship between regularly consuming a food and the risk of developing a certain disease over time, as was the topic of this thread.


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chud
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Quoted from 2degreespisces


Sure, and there are types of fish that kill you if they're badly prepared, if I'm not mistaken  


So that possibility, though extreme, exists.  

Quoted from 2degreespisces
However, that's not the same thing as the relationship between regularly consuming a food and the risk of developing a certain disease over time, as was the topic of this thread.


So are you denying the possibility that regularly consuming a certain food (an avoid) over time may put you at risk of developing a certain disease?  If so, it would seem that you are denying the possibility of avoids all together.

Let's look again at what Dr. D said, regarding chicken and B's and AB's:

Quoted Text
The issue is the power of an agglutinating lectin to attack your bloodstream and potentially lead to strokes and immune disorders.

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In my own personal situation, I have noticed the negative effects of enough, though not all avoids that I am convinced that the BT diet has  substantiation. I also believe that just because I can't 'feel' the effects of all avoids doesn't mean they aren't effecting me negatively. Therefore I choose to obstain from most avoids as often as I can. I know how much better I feel eating the right foods and not the wrong. It is also my decision to obstain from the most detrimental ones for my BT which are wheat, corn dairy etc. I have also have some of the potential disease markers for an O such as BS issues and skin cancer as well as thyroid. I am greatful to Dr D and his work for helping me to deal with them. The diet has stabalized all of these. If I were a B I would not take the chance by eating chicken. It's just a bird. I have many B clients that have come to 'feel' the effects of chicken. Does it guarantee they'll have a stroke if they eat it? of course not. However, I personally wouldn't take that chance by making it any kind of regular part of my diet. Is SWAMI 100% accurate? No but chicken is a big one for a B. If, as an O, I were to continue to eat the major avoids I would have to wonder why I'm BTing at all. After all, I am here to better my health and thanks to this diet, I am so much better for it.  But that's just me.


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san j
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Quoted from san j
Why is this an important distinction to make?

The majority of the world's Bs eat chicken. The majority of the world's Bs do not have strokes. Do you see what I'm saying?

And also: Though one particular B may be very susceptible to the nefarious chicken lectin, another may be considerably less so. Dr. D'Adamo would certainly concur with this, having accorded chicken a "black dot" for Nomads, who are all ABs and Bs.

....

All I'm asking is that we lighten up on the catastrophic rhetoric AND remember the primacy of Individuality, even within the D'Adamo orbit. (I'm, frankly, surprised that the über-individualism inculcated by the SWAMI philosophy hasn't rubbed off on its proponents!   )


Quoted from 2degreespisces

This, in a nutshell, is what the entire discussion boils down to in my opinion.
I entirely agree with san j's statements as quoted; and even for those who are not yet on the individualized SWAMI-level: there is no food that gives a 100% disease rate, for any blood type.

So even if you stick with BTD, we're talking about tendencies and statistics over large groups of people, never about a 1-on-1 cause and effect between one food and any disease.
(Except in the case of allergies and heightened sensitivities of course, but the "chicken debate" isn't about that.)


Yay! Someone gets it! Whaddya know!  



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