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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Eat Right 4 Your Type  ›  Is the blood type diet scientific? Concerns...*
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Is the blood type diet scientific? Concerns...*  This thread currently has 8,781 views. Print Print Thread
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grey rabbit
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 12:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamix 47% Teacher-INFP
Kyosha Nim
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80% is statistically significant. Yes there are Physiological differences between the Inuit and the Chinese. Yes there are differences in gut flora between type Os and type As. A study on the affect of a meal of beef, potato, bell pepper would not be scientific, you have too many variables there.

I agree that swami is better than the basic BTD.

Until there is a controlled study, you will not be satisfied with anything any of us has to say. A scientific study of the BTD would be ridiculously expensive and is probably not going to happen. So, if it isn't working for you, maybe you need to find something else.


“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”

John Wayne's last words
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Patty H
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 1:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER L(a+b-) NMg Prop Super Taster
Ee Dan
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Quoted from Damon
Comments referring to the notion that "it is totally irrelevant whether the basis for the BTD is scientifically proven" and that "the proof is in the pudding" are not appropriate IMO. The topic starter is not without reason asking for reference to a scientific basis. The BTD is a 'lifestyle diet' and not simply a 'lose weight (quick) diet'. Since it involves some drastic lifestyle changes, it is pretty logical that someone would want to see some proper scientific evidence before given it a shot. And for all those who have already found their proof in their pudding; what if not all (sometimes very drastic) dietary rules you are following are necessary? Wouldn't you want to know that?? Also note that most of the people making these comments are following SWAMI (or at least the GTD). Especially SWAMI is far more advanced than the BTD, and incorporates a lot of factors (which are properly scientifically proven), in addition to the basic BTD 'lectin-stuff'.

As mentioned in my prior posts, I don't intend to claim the BTD, GTD and/or SWAMI don't work; but in response to the opening post of this topic, and the many positive replies of you 'believers' (no pun intended), I do want to ring a different noise. It is not that I don't believe in genotypes etc., but I do want to point out (especially towards the topic starter) that there are people like me who have not found the proof in their pudding and who believe that some core aspects of the BTD may well be wrong or exaggerated.

Let's get back to the scientific discussion, and mind you, I am definitely open to being convinced. As mentioned before there is little scientific about the 80% overall success rate. Sure there are lots of lectin-related studies as provided via Andrea's URL, but I would call these studies circumstantial. Where are the studies that specifically look at a type A's blood agglutination pre and post a beef-potato-bellpepper-meal? I feel that if the BTD would be considered sufficiently scientifically proven, Dr D should surely have received a Nobel prize. (And no, I don't believe in a large conspiracy against Dr D.)

Also think about this; all humans, regardless of blood type, cultural background, or diet histories have the same basic gut design, dentition (number and type of teeth, type of enamel), type of saliva and digestive enzymes. This is why we call them humans. Inuits have lived for millennia on 90% meat diets, Chinese for millennia on 90% plant food diets. Still there are no anatomical, physiological, or biochemical differences between Chinese and Eskimos. Nor are there any such differences between people with A-type and O-type blood.

So, do I think Dr D doesn't offer value to us customers? No. Especially SWAMI is very valuable, but IMO likely not because of the bloodtype-based dietary advice, but because of the numerous other dietary considerations included in SWAMI (e.g. think of specific organ support, chemical/pesticide/hormone content of individual foods, the completeness of the nutritional profile, etc.)

Finally, for everyone's information; I (used to) follow SWAMI myself, and can assure you I have filled in the input form to perfection. Also, the reason that I started following this diet in the first place is health- and not weight-related. Yes I felt OK on the diet, but my pudding teached me that I feel better when structurally bending some rules. This has made me question the appropriateness of those rules.


Damon, I think I will have to respectfully disagree with you here.  I believe that some of the other diets I referenced in my earlier post are also health driven and not just weight driven.  A perfect example of this is The Perfect Gene Diet.  This diet was specifically developed as a way to avoid Alzheimer's disease and heart issues and recommends that the "dieter" get genetic testing to determine their genes that impact those diseases.

The Atkins Diet goes into great detail about hypoglycemia and diabetes as does The Rosedale Diet.

If we look at all of the popular diet books out there, they are written either by health care practitioners, whether they be M.D.'s, N.D.'s, N.P.'s, nutritionists and/or people who have achieved great success in sports and have become trainers of other athletes.  Most books are based on the author's clinical experience with patients and/or clients.  However, I believe that all of these authors have read and researched extensively, looking at health studies and other related available information and connected the dots to enhance the effectiveness of their theories for the benefit of their patients/clients/readers.

Aside from The Dash Diet I referenced in my earlier post, can you name any other diet that has under gone the rigors of a double-blind study?  Who would fund that?  I'm not even sure The Dash Diet under went that type of rigorous study, despite being sponsored by The National Institutes of Health.  

Remember, too, that I said I also fall more into the 20% rule - but I still see the value of the diet for the 80%, including my husband and daughter.


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Damon
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 1:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Lewis(a-b-) Warrior 45%
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Quoted from grey rabbit
80% is statistically significant.

This claim makes no sense. Do you know what statistical significance means? (Any number can be statistically significant; it all depends on the number's standard deviation and what it is compared to.)

If you read my second post in this thread you'll see what I meant when I said "there is little scientific about the 80% overall success rate." (click)

Quoted from grey rabbit
Yes there are Physiological differences between the Inuit and the Chinese. Yes there are differences in gut flora between type Os and type As.

I was referring to substantial dietary physiological differences. There are no differences between the enzymes their bodies produce, the type of teeth they chew their food with, between the length of their digestive tracts, etc. Isn't it weird that Warriors and Hunters are equal in these respects?

Quoted from grey rabbit
A study on the affect of a meal of beef, potato, bell pepper would not be scientific, you have too many variables there.

How can you claim this would be unscientific due to 'too many variables' while you previously (although inappropriately) called the 80% success rate statistically scientific? That concerned a complete diet with far more variables than 1 simple meal.

It should be fairly easy for Dr D to just post a before and after picture of the blood agglutination in such a simple experiment.

Quoted from grey rabbit
Until there is a controlled study, you will not be satisfied with anything any of us has to say. A scientific study of the BTD would be ridiculously expensive and is probably not going to happen. So, if it isn't working for you, maybe you need to find something else.

You react as if I am in the wrong thread, and as if I have personally attacked you. Note that this thread is about the scientific evidence behind the BTD. I am just ventilating my (in your opinion: 'negative') view about the BTD, as counterweight to the overwhelming amount of positive replies other members already submitted to this topic. I feel all those positive opinions might leave the topic starter (and future users who coincidentally stumble upon this thread) with an incorrect/biased conclusion. (Since users for whom the diet doesn't turn out to work just leave these forums after a while, there logically appears an inproportional large number of 'positive users' in threads like these.)

@ Patty
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I am not familiar with the diets you mentioned, but must admit that some sound rather lifestyle-changing. But, these forums aren't about those diets. Here it is all and only about the BTD (and GTD + SWAMI). Again, I am not saying Dr D's diets don't help people or are not worth the money, but I am questioning (a part of) the scientific base underlying these diets, the BTD in particular. As long as no official double-blind study has been performed on this diet, but the only scientific support are these circumstantial lectin-studies, I don't feel the diet can be called very scientific. But this argument applies to any other diet when trying to answer the question "is this diet scientific?"

Like I already said to greyrabbit above, I am just trying to provide the topic starter with a more balanced view than the average 'everything is perfect and great'-comment.
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Kibble
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 2:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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So what diet out there is scientifically proven?  It would be good to have that information so the scientifically proven diet could be compared to the scientifically unproven diet that works for many on these forums.  That way all of us who desire could be teached as good as you.
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Sahara
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 2:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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From all I have read people can lose weight on anything, or so goes the "calories in/calories out" theory.  In the end, health is an individual matter- what people want to eat is really up to them.  But yes there does appear to be both scientific and anecdotal evidence for blood type which you would think many people would know just intuitively ie whether they are allergic to dairy or grains or whatever- isn't this the kind of thing you just sort of know once you get past 20 years old?
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Spring
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 2:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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 that there are people like me who have not found the proof in their pudding and who believe that some core aspects of the BTD may well be wrong or exaggerated.


This is a strange thread IMO. For someone looking for scientific, irrefutable proof of anything, it seems puzzling, to say the least, for them to be on a general forum such as this looking for answers to their questions!

We are aware that there are people who would almost swear that they are following a diet to the letter, but there is hardly anyone that actually does that. For instance, Dr. D. makes it clear that foods should be as pure as absolutely possible. Does everyone adhere to that to the letter? Of course, not! Many cannot afford it, for instance, but that does not mean that they can't get tremendous help from the diet!

Unless people are locked in a building, in separate rooms and given every single item that they are exposed to, both inside their bodies and out, for a given amount of time, there is no way that anything can actually be proven. I laugh when I read about such and such trials being done going by what people say they have done. What a joke! Not worth giving the time of day. And much of what the general public is fed on a regular basis is based on this sort of junk "science."

Many of us had unique health issues when we first heard about this diet, and a first reading of only parts of one or more of the various books, made total sense to us. When I saw that A-Types should avoid beef in the BTD book, it was exactly like a bright light went on for me. Who ever heard of such a thing, but it make perfect sense! It was just dawning on me already that beef was doing a really bad number on me. Not the usual symptoms that other family members suffered from eating beef, but intense pain in my feet and legs about twenty minutes after I ate it.

Most of the people I have listened to or read about who have not responded as well as they would like to the various diets had or have health issues that needed to be addressed. Some people can't digest what they eat no matter how pure and wonderful the food is. Some people have a body full of Candidiasis that is slowly killing them. Some with bodies full of inflammation, etc.. There are numerous other issues that need to be dealt with sometimes before the diet can fully bring about the desired benefits. Thankfully, I had already been on a program for nearly nine years to get rid of Candidiasis and able to return to some semblance of health before I heard about this way of dieting.

Anyway, going by what I already know, I think the purpose and intent of this thread will NEVER be satisfied! But I am!! And what I "believe" is what I know from my own experience with the diets, and that is good enough for me!  


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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ruthiegirl
Tuesday, May 1, 2012, 7:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI O+ Gatherer, Healing from Fibromyalgia
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted Text
Also think about this; all humans, regardless of blood type, cultural background, or diet histories have the same basic gut design, dentition (number and type of teeth, type of enamel), type of saliva and digestive enzymes. This is why we call them humans. Inuits have lived for millennia on 90% meat diets, Chinese for millennia on 90% plant food diets. Still there are no anatomical, physiological, or biochemical differences between Chinese and Eskimos. Nor are there any such differences between people with A-type and O-type blood.


There are differences in digestive enzymes between different blood types. O's have more stomach acid and A's have less, with Bs and ABs somewhere in between.  So I agree with you that there are no anatomical differences between different blood types, but I disagree with the physiological and biochemical differences.

Also, bear in mind that people may "survive" on a certain diet, but that's different from "thriving" on one. As long as people live long enough to bear children and raise them to adulthood, the culture won't die out. If kids get married and start families right after puberty, you only need to live to 40 or 50 to keep the society going, and you don't need to be energetic, healthy, or pain-free that whole time either.

Therefore, the argument "people have been eating this food for  generations" is not a valid proof that the food is healthy.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah (in Israel for the school year), 17yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Dr. D
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 10:28am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
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Quoted Text
This claim makes no sense. Do you know what statistical significance means? (Any number can be statistically significant; it all depends on the number's standard deviation and what it is compared to.


This is correct, but one needs to remember that the 80-20 rule here is being applied uniformly across three diets that are quite distinctly different that each other.

Here Damon, I must reject your hypothesis that the improvements are the result of the notion that 'the diets are all fundamentally healthy' and produce generalized improvements independent of being personalized to ABO type. They are in fact quite different: dairy for type B, meat for type O and plant proteins including soy for type A. In each case someone has written a book or concocted a theory in support or attack of any and all of these suggestions.

These results would seem distinct enough to suggest that the 80-20 rule would very unlikely extend across the different types and different diets. In discussions with statisticians, I have been assured that, if accurate (remember these are self-reported and do suffer from confirmation bias) the null hypothesis would be of exceedingly low probability.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
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Spring
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 11:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI Explorer
Ee Dan
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Quoted Text
the diets are all fundamentally healthy


I would just like (NOT!) to see  how healthy I would be if I ate beef, pork and most dairy products on a regular basis!!! "Healthy" diet, my eye! The pain I would be suffering in my entire body would make life totally intolerable. And that is not even considering what several fruits, vegetables and many kinds of seafood would be doing to me. Tomato alone almost disables me. And NONE of those things are on my SWAMI diet!! This sort of thing doesn't just happen. No way.

Yep, I would be either dead or riding around in a wheel chair, taking prescription drugs by the cup full. We see this going on around us all the time.


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Damon
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 11:51am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Lewis(a-b-) Warrior 45%
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Hi Dr D,

I must admit I can see your point. Still, playing the devil's advocate, I would say this does not proof the positive effect of basing one's diet on avoiding 'bad lectins' (i.e. there could be other reasons for people feeling uniformly better).
However, let's just forget this point for now.

I do enormously appreciate your thoughts and feedback, and more importantly; the fact that you allow these threads to exist, and even participate in the discussion yourself. Of course the easy way out would be to just have this thread deleted and users like me blocked.

Anyway, two final questions I would enormously appreciate your answer to;
1) Why don't you simply post some pictures of the degree of blood agglutination of individuals, before and after them consuming some 'bad lectin'-rich meal? (e.g. a beef-potato-bellpepper meal for a type A; milk with cereals for a type O; etc.) Surely, this would be a relatively easy experiment, and I feel it would hugely help to reduce skepticism (mine included).
2) Don't you agree that your diet is in essence so controversial, that if true, and if acknowledged as scientifically proven, you would definitely be in the race for a Nobel prize? If so, why don't you have an external party execute a proper scientific study? Surely 6+ million books, SWAMI fees and supplement sales must generate sufficient funds to support such an experiment? If you are so confident about the truth in your diets, the prospects of being awarded a Nobel prize should surely be enough motivation to get such a scientific study done.
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Spring
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 11:59am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Oh, brother......


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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grey rabbit
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 12:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamix 47% Teacher-INFP
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Damon


1) Why don't you simply post some pictures of the degree of blood agglutination of individuals, before and after them consuming some 'bad lectin'-rich meal? (e.g. a beef-potato-bellpepper meal for a type A; milk with cereals for a type O; etc.) Surely, this would be a relatively easy experiment, and I feel it would hugely help to reduce skepticism (mine included).


It seems to me that this would require a blood draw from the hepatic portal vein, kinda hard to do.

And, I did not suggest that you leave the forum, I suggested that you would not be happy with anything said here. I did not feel you were attacking me and I did not intend to attack you, it's difficult to communicate the subtle nuances of intention in discussions that take place on a message board and not in person.


“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”

John Wayne's last words
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Goldie
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 12:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

All Gatherer -70 Scorp/Sag on BTD/GENO 17 year
Sam Dan
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I think this so called 'diet' can be as scientific as you wish it to be.. BUT IT HAS TO FIX what ails YOU..

Stubborn adherence to this diet or any other, and questioning it's validity behind the word "scientifically" is to me a sign that there is more going on in your head.  The brain as a functioning part of the body will adjust to thinking more clearly once it gets well fed.  Fear from which your question may come from, is on unhealthy state of mind within the body.  Both the mind and the brain work in tandem to see to it that, as healthy humans 'we can have a life!'

When one asks questions and does not accept any answer given then it is time to evaluate what is going on in your life. Self examination can be very disillusioning, and expensive if you go to professionals to hear what you wish to hear at a price.  (Here advise is free.)   I think that being young and to some extent 'ignorant' (not a derogative) and you just don't see the answers to what it is you 'need', you can easily develop circular thinking.

Being the individual you are, YOU should stick to your guns - as the game goes on - but know that in the end it is YOU who might do the changing. Being young/inexperienced/ and still healthy enough to pass- then by all means do not ruffle your feathers, stay in the mode/mood you are in and let time pass. Time is a great teacher.

Eventually you will be coming down with the 80% / 20% ratio on one side or the other with this diet or other things in life..   You can prevent the illnesses predictable to your inheritance, you can develop them earlier instead of later.  One thing is for sure, you will survive for a long time, and your mind will occupy itself even longer to get the answers you wish NOT to SEE.  

Yes changing from junk food to real foods will make some difference while young and healthy, but once you get ill the picture rapidly changes.  That then will make you evaluate things not for some chart, list, or pretty picture, but by how you look and feel.. YOU as the individual you are.

People to much stuck on it's the 'other' guy who is wrong, or 'that' does not work for me before 'trying' it, or this is to 'complicated' for me, such people suffer mental issues and have a hard time in life.  Healthy people create ways to fit the world to their own 'needs'-- what are yours?

Dr D in his infinite patience has lay-ed out all results for YOU to evaluate, then to follow through testing each food AGAINST what you KNOW and then after that is done, you might develop the correct questions.

ASKING: Is this scientific" ... is like asking is the world round/  some still think and believe and convince themselves that they are right and the world is hollow or flat..  YOUR question is way to broad to be scientific.  It reminds me of the King and I.. in it he talks about being scientific, maybe you ought to rent the video and view it to get the answers to your life sciences--- That being- that you can't TRUST something unless it has a label.  HERE nothing has a label other then the ones we give to things.. some foods good for us, some better and still others not good enough to eat. Some exercise better than others, some happy communications more so than others.. to each his or her own choices.  

My life is simple! I read, I learn, I trust what 'I' experience and then I move on and go to the next question.  Reformulate your question and then we'll see if the 'real' considerations are worth it. But please don't go on any of these diets here, they might fix what is most important to you and then you might stand naked having answered the question of: What is Life? - FOR YOU!  

Here that answer is the only one that matters at all. It is not the foods, we chose not to eat, nor the foods sounding strange to me on my list, and I will not try them, (old habits prevent me)  showing my chains on my brain...... HERE it is about what, how, or when will I enrich my life, so that I then can make the world a better place.  I am not stuck in circular thinking.. all the best on your journey for that is- what this diet way of life- is all about..                


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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Andrea AWsec
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 12:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI INFJ Warrior Taster
Kyosha Nim
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJnIMFWqKBo&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYKuKMS4ZQ4&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ5t6r_FiT4&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbgf_t7wgqk&feature=relmfu


Lectinology is a science in its own right.

  http://www.drpeterjdadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Lectinology

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/07357909709047585


Loads of photos of agglutination on the internet. You just have to start to look around for it.



We have a saying " If someone doesn't know you can't tell them."  I run into these people all the time.

Go seek your own truth about diet.






MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Andrea AWsec
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 12:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI INFJ Warrior Taster
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Damon

2) Don't you agree that your diet is in essence so controversial, that if true, and if acknowledged as scientifically proven, you would definitely be in the race for a Nobel prize? If so, why don't you have an external party execute a proper scientific study? Surely 6+ million books, SWAMI fees and supplement sales must generate sufficient funds to support such an experiment? If you are so confident about the truth in your diets, the prospects of being awarded a Nobel prize should surely be enough motivation to get such a scientific study done.


Who would believe a self conducted study?

Yes Dr. D does deserve a Nobel Prize-- we all know that . But for now he is changing the face of medicine in a  very meaningful way. I have been following him for many years and here is just the surface of his life. Looking deeper you will see that he has written a textbook for students and is teaching at the University of Bridgeport( and much more). Creating an army of creative thinkers, doctors who can change people's lives.



MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Easy E
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 1:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh+ Explorer, non-secretor
Ee Dan
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I think that a lot of people go through a phase where they look for evidence that contradicts the info from the BTD or GTD.  It can be hard to accept that certain foods that you were taught were healthy your whole life are actually not healthy for you in the long run.  

Also tough for some markets out there that capitalize on this misinformation, since it could result in lost money for them.

I went through a phase like this myself (where i questioned it, since i am essentially an A-O hybrid of sorts, feeling like a walking contradiction, but every other similar type of diet is too generalized, and none described me as accurately as the explorer and the foods it has (which many i loved before the diet, while many toxins for explorers made me want to gag).  Dr. D goes into far more detail than the one size fits all approach.

It is an evolving thing.
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ruthiegirl
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 2:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Damon
Hi Dr D,

I must admit I can see your point. Still, playing the devil's advocate, I would say this does not proof the positive effect of basing one's diet on avoiding 'bad lectins' (i.e. there could be other reasons for people feeling uniformly better).
However, let's just forget this point for now.
Lectins are not the only factor in determining "who should eat what foods." This is especially true for SWAMI software.

Quoted Text

I do enormously appreciate your thoughts and feedback, and more importantly; the fact that you allow these threads to exist, and even participate in the discussion yourself. Of course the easy way out would be to just have this thread deleted and users like me blocked.
It's clear (to me anyway) that you're asking an honest question, and truly do want to understand. The people who get blocked from this website are the ones who attack other members repeatedly, and the ones who promote another dietary system to the point of being SPAM, and are doing so in a way that negates the concept of individuality. (Many individuals on this forum are personally using elements from other dietary systems, but the key is they're recognizing that it works for THEM and may not work for others.) We don't kick people off the forum for asking questions and listening to the answers.
Quoted Text
2) Don't you agree that your diet is in essence so controversial, that if true, and if acknowledged as scientifically proven, you would definitely be in the race for a Nobel prize? If so, why don't you have an external party execute a proper scientific study? Surely 6+ million books, SWAMI fees and supplement sales must generate sufficient funds to support such an experiment? If you are so confident about the truth in your diets, the prospects of being awarded a Nobel prize should surely be enough motivation to get such a scientific study done.


Yes, he knows this diet is controversial. He's spent enough time over the years responding to critics.  

I have no idea what a "double-blinded placebo controlled study" would cost and whether or not he has the resources for it. I'm not sure what kind of a profit margin he has on his books, supplements, etc, nor what his expenses are for product research and development.

He doesn't have any control over winning the Nobel prize. No investment in a research project would guarantee that.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah (in Israel for the school year), 17yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Damon
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 2:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Spring
Oh, brother......

Spring, why don't you just get out of this thread. Your last few posts contributed nothing at all to the debate that is going on.

Yes, I do know you're thriving on your diet and feeling good etc. But the title of this thread is not "Hey Spring, how do you do on this diet (and please also let us know when someone annoys you)."

Quoted from grey rabbit
It seems to me that this would require a blood draw from the hepatic portal vein, kinda hard to do.

And, I did not suggest that you leave the forum, I suggested that you would not be happy with anything said here. I did not feel you were attacking me and I did not intend to attack you, it's difficult to communicate the subtle nuances of intention in discussions that take place on a message board and not in person.

I do agree about the difficulty of communicating through a message board, and that probably also works the other way around. If definitely did/do not intend to personally attack anyone either.

Quoted from Goldie
...

You are going totally off-topic. You don't know me. Suggesting I am stubborn, inexperienced and have trust issues is totally irrelevant and unnecessary. To me it only indicates that you are apparently not able to address the content of my posts.

Quoted from Andrea AWsec
Loads of photos of agglutination on the internet. You just have to start to look around for it.

If you could refer me to some photos of individuals pre and post consuming 'bad lectin'-rich meals that would be very much appreciated. As far as I am aware these photos do not exist.

Quoted from Andrea AWsec
We have a saying " If someone doesn't know you can't tell them."  I run into these people all the time.

Go seek your own truth about diet.

No one is forcing you to read my posts, nor am I asking you to follow my worldview. I am making relevant on-topic comments in a thread about the scientific evidence behind the BTD. If you feel that your 'worldview' is being threatened by my comments, its maybe better for you to just stay away instead of turning from intellectual to emotional responses.

Quoted from Andrea AWsec
Who would believe a self conducted study?

That's why I am suggesting to have an external party execute the research. However, there's nothing wrong with self-conducted studies, if conducted properly. Researchers are receiving Nobel prizes all the time for self-conducted studies.

@ Easy E and ruthiegirl
Thanks for your replies. Please note that I am not at all arguing that Dr D's diets aren't any good! If you would read this complete thread from start to finish (although I can understand one may feel that would be too long a read) you would see that the only 'fundament' of Dr D's diets that I am questioning is the lectin-based one. (I must admit though that this is one of the core fundaments..) I do agree that Dr D's diets are very useful and valuable for a whole lot of other reasons; including the incorporation of knowledge about foods' glycemic indices, pesticide & hormone contents, organ-specific support, healing properties, etc.

Finally, I do want to point out this: it always are the same few regulars (coincidentally all female and not exactly young..) who start attacking people like me when they are ventilating healthy skepticism on these forums. Instead of having a normal discussion when encountering a person who does not share their beliefs, these regulars start attacking like a school of piranhas as soon as they notice that convincing the other person of their own beliefs is failing. Note I am not referring to each and everyone of the posters above, but those who feel addressed probably should.

I have seen this happening time and time again;
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-GC/m-1332360891/s-all/
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-GC/m-1305915500/s-all/
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?v-print/m-1292453816/
(There are many more examples out there)

Why can't you just all have a normal on-topic debate, without all-caps words in every sentence, without an overload of exclamation marks, and most importantly, without suggesting something may be wrong with someone's personal life or belief system.

You're driving a lot of people out of these forums; people who do not necessarily believe for the full 100% in the BTD fundamentals, but people who are (partially) following the diet nonetheless, and who are also helping out people in other topics on these forums.

Rest assured, I will probably leave these forums soon too. Just ask yourself if this is something you can be proud about and reconsider your approach the next time someone like me comes along.
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ruthiegirl
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 2:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI O+ Gatherer, Healing from Fibromyalgia
Kyosha Nim
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I certainly hope you don't leave the forum soon! (Uh oh- an exclamation point! And another one! I'd  better stop now before you get scared off. )

Most of the science behind these diets is beyond me. My forte is emotional support and pratical cooking/meal planning advice. I think you'd make a valuable member of this forum, especially if you are successful in locating the scientific studies and photos you're searching for. Then you'll be able to share with others "I was a skeptic too but here are all these links I've put together that answer some questions." Or even "I'm still a skeptic but here are all these links I've put together that answer some of my questions."

If we get enough open-minded skeptics together, we can have a lot of deep scientific discussions on here that can "win over" even more skeptics who stumble in.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah (in Israel for the school year), 17yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Lloyd
Wednesday, May 2, 2012, 3:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
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This thread seems to have run its course.
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Dr. D
Thursday, May 3, 2012, 2:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
Kwan Jhang Nim
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I unlocked  the thread to give a final response to Damon. Now I'm going to lock it again.



Quoted Text
1) Why don't you simply post some pictures of the degree of blood agglutination of individuals, before and after them consuming some 'bad lectin'-rich meal? (e.g. a beef-potato-bellpepper meal for a type A; milk with cereals for a type O; etc.) Surely, this would be a relatively easy experiment, and I feel it would hugely help to reduce skepticism (mine included).


The beef avoidance recommendation is not due to any lectin in beef, but rather the inability of most type As to make enough HCL, gastrin, pepsin and IAP to actually digest the food. These kind of associations are better analyzed from things like indican and breath hydrogen results. We do have some interesting preliminary results that show that type A's 'just off the boat' have high breath hydrogens on average and that these uniformly come down on the type A diet. The other lectin associations are usually from the pre-existing medical literature, so I don't feel a great need to re-verify those. Some lectins are also not particular strong agglutinins so their effects are not always evident in photographs. We must use other techniques that are not so obvious. One doesn't prove the connection between smoking and cancer by asking for a positive lung biopsy after one cigarette.


Quoted Text
2) Don't you agree that your diet is in essence so controversial, that if true, and if acknowledged as scientifically proven, you would definitely be in the race for a Nobel prize? If so, why don't you have an external party execute a proper scientific study? Surely 6+ million books, SWAMI fees and supplement sales must generate sufficient funds to support such an experiment? If you are so confident about the truth in your diets, the prospects of being awarded a Nobel prize should surely be enough motivation to get such a scientific study done.


Not sure I would agree that the diets are controversial. They require no special knowledge about physiology or immunology that is not already out there. It is true that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' but I truly fail to see why these would constitute extraordinary claims. ABO/Secretor is a big influence on the phenotype of the digestive tract and its relationship to the immune system. If someone doesn't accept that, they are simply ignorant of the literature, pure and simple. What should be the preferred response to such low-effort thinking? It's nice that you feel that the idea is worthy of a Nobel Prize. Frankly I do not, but that is besides the point. Although it would seem easy to design a study that could test the hypothesis, it would in fact be quite difficult, lengthy and prohibitively expensive.  Food association studies can take years. And the participants must be closely watched. Also, would the subjects be blinded (i.e some got the right diet for their type, some the wrong)? A better type of study might be along the lines of what was done by the Seventh Day Adventists where they just let them do their thing and then compare their disease/death rates to averages over 2-3 decades.  Another way might be to tack on this criteria in an ongoing project such as the 'Nurse's Study.' But these studies are best when the intervention is limited (i.e the amount of Omega-3 in diet, etc). A complete dietary protocol (times four, no less) seems to me like an administrative nightmare. A investigative group I organized two years ago came back with the estimate of 1000-1500 participants, one year duration and a price tag of 7-10 million dollars to produce an acceptable evidence basis. That's a lot of SWAMIS. In either case it would be a very long and arduous process, typically one that could only reasonably be undertaken in some sort of academic/governmental type initiative. I'd love to see it, though.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
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