Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register


Main Forum Page  ♦   Latest Posts  ♦   Member Center  ♦   Search  ♦   Archives   ♦   Help   ♦   Log In/Out   ♦   Admins
Forum Login
Login Name: Create a new account
Password:     Forgot password

BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Eat Right 4 Your Type  ›  From Vegan to Blood Type O Paleo? *
Users Browsing Forum
Baidu Spider and 11 Guests

From Vegan to Blood Type O Paleo? *  This thread currently has 10,171 views. Print Print Thread
8 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 » All Recommend Thread
EquiPro
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 3:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer!
Sam Dan
Posts: 2,336
Gender: Female
BTW, I have found a way to deal with the ethical issues, too.  I found a local meat market that does their own processing and butchering.  When I can afford it - about every 18 months, I call and ask them to get me a whole beef.  I ask them to make sure that it is only grass fed.  They regularly go to the sale barns, and know ranchers that don't grain-finish their cattle.  They purchase the animal for me and haul it back to their little facility. They assured me, when I first looked into it, that they bring the couple of cattle that they do on any given day to their place and put them into a pen to relax from the stress of the sale barn and transport. They then hand-slaughter each one themselves, making sure to keep the process as stress-free as possible.  They then will hang the meat to age, if you want it done that way, and process it into the cuts that you want.  I am charged, buy the live pound, for the beef and a $130 slaughter and processing charge.  The last time I purchased a beef from them it cost me, all told, 2.30/ pound for the entire beef, which ended up being around 500 lbs.

They deep -freeze it and call you to pick it up!  They also do pigs, which I don't buy, lambs, if possible and cabrito.  It's fantastic, and my biggest ethical issues, which are with the slaughter and processing at commercial operations, not longer bothers me.


FRESH START TODAY!!!
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 25 - 181
ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 3:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI O+ Gatherer, Healing from Fibromyalgia
Kyosha Nim
Columnists and Bloggers
Posts: 12,292
Gender: Female
Location: New York
Age: 42
Welcome!

I think it woudl be wonderful if you documented your changes on YouTube- just think of all the people who can learn about BTD that way!

Keep on reading the BTD books before you get started. The O diet doesn't need to be Paleo, and it doesn't even need to be gluten-free. Many individuals do well on gluten-free diets, and a few do well without any grains, but neither is required to follow BTD. You can still have rye and spelt (gluten containing grains) along with gluten-free grains such as rice and quinoa, and a few beans. The key is to eat the right quantities of these foods: 1 or 2 servings of grains per day, not 6-11, beans a few times a week, not several times a day, and never as the "main protein" of a meal.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 26 - 181
jayneeo
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 5:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh- Gatherer
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 6,349
Gender: Female
Location: San Jose, CA
Age: 67
Have you heard about this lady? Liere Keith, former vegan. Could be good reading.
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.....ivorism-episode-334/
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 27 - 181
Dr. D
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 7:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
Kwan Jhang Nim
Posts: 4,162
Gender: Male
Location: Connecticut
Age: 58
Quoted Text
I know Dr. Cordain says Dr. D'Adamo has the history wrong, like type A was actually the first blood type etc.  I don't really care about the history... I care about how food effects blood (like the grain thing).


Dr. Cordain is intellectually dishonest about this and quite a few other things.. like when and where he first came across the concept of food lectins causing disease, a concept he manages to now wholeheartedly evangelize.

When a scientist uses a mass market book as the basis for a scientific criticism they are either dumb or lazy.

Sour grapes, but true.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
Logged
Site Site Private Message Private message Reply: 28 - 181
ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 7:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI O+ Gatherer, Healing from Fibromyalgia
Kyosha Nim
Columnists and Bloggers
Posts: 12,292
Gender: Female
Location: New York
Age: 42
Something I gleamed from reading Dr D's books is that he focuses mainly on "this is what the human body is like NOW, and here's how to determine who should eat what." The stuff about "evolution of blood types" has always been mere conjecture; interesting but not really important and he's not sure he's right about that part. Or, at least, that's the impression I got from reading it.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 29 - 181
Dr. D
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 8:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
Kwan Jhang Nim
Posts: 4,162
Gender: Male
Location: Connecticut
Age: 58
Ruth, I was always certain of the 'genetic influences' that shaped how each blood type developed as a result of environmental influences, (founder effect, wild-types, etc, etc). However, most of that would have been way beyond the scope of a book like Eat Right For Your Type. One must realize that at that point in the process, the publisher has laid out a large amount of cash as an advance, plus still  needs to front the marketing money. In fact at that time they own the manuscript, not the author. At each step of the process someone in the pipeline comes in with a concern (too technical, too scary, too complicated) and amputates anything that could remotely risk impacting sales. A first-time author does not have much say in the process.

On the up-side, your reach a lot of people with a basic message that is helpful, on the down-side, critics attack the most popular manifestation of a concept simply because it has the highest recognition value.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
Logged
Site Site Private Message Private message Reply: 30 - 181
kauaian
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 8:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer
Sam Dan
Posts: 1,002
Gender: Female
Quoted from ruthiegirl
Something I gleamed from reading Dr D's books is that he focuses mainly on "this is what the human body is like NOW, and here's how to determine who should eat what." The stuff about "evolution of blood types" has always been mere conjecture; interesting but not really important and he's not sure he's right about that part. Or, at least, that's the impression I got from reading it.


Ruthie,
Well said, you always sum it up nicely.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 31 - 181
kauaian
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 8:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer
Sam Dan
Posts: 1,002
Gender: Female
Welcome one guy,
If we all "listened" to our bodies more we would draw our conclusions from truth & not be bombarded by others opinions.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 32 - 181
ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 8:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI O+ Gatherer, Healing from Fibromyalgia
Kyosha Nim
Columnists and Bloggers
Posts: 12,292
Gender: Female
Location: New York
Age: 42
But some of the details such as "Type O developed during this period of pre-history" and "Type A developed during that period of pre-history" as well as "which one came first" is something that can never be proved or disproved. Nor does that really have any impact on blood types today.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 33 - 181
SoCalSandy
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 11:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Health=Hope=Everything ....Arabian proverb
Winter: Hidden potential.
Posts: 7
Gender: Female
Age: 71
I have not read through all the posts, but I want to tell you my Type O story.  I'm a former colon hydrotherapist and in the 1990's I really tried to avoid meat, and eat raw as much as possible.  I'm a Type O non-secretor.  I had a colon therapist friend back then who was over-run with respiratory problems, and now I understand why.  She was likely eating mostly grains and avoiding meat, as was the trend at that time for 'healthy people'.  I had plenty of aches and pains in my joints and I had no idea then that they were diet related.  I thought I was just 'getting older.'  I took plenty of supplements to try to 'fix' my aches and pains, and I also needed anti-acid remedies frequently.

At my best, back in those days, I weighed 140 pounds and carried more weight than was idea in my hips and thighs.  I worked out at they gym with weight training and I was toned and 'fit'.....at least I thought so then.

Just over two years ago I started eating the Type O non-secretor diet.  I now weigh about 125 pounds, sometimes less, every day, and my body has become so much more 'ideal'.  Those heavy thighs and big hips just melted away, and for the first time in my life I can see daylight between my thighs when I stand with my feet together.  I will be 68 in September, and I have no aches and pains in my joints at all, nor any digestive problems.  I never need anti-acid preparations, unless I slip up and eat wheat.  If I do that, I wake up during the night needing to have some baking soda in some water to ease my burning stomach.

I'm back at the gym now, doing the same weight training ritual I used to do.  I've been back at it for only six weeks and I have logged only about 16 hours so far doing weight training.  Already I can see my triceps, biceps, shoulders, and back are showing distinct definition, more so than they ever did way back then because I'm not wearing a layer of processed wheat and corn under my skin.  Muscles do have memory, I can see that now.  All that weight training I did back then is really paying off now that my body is thriving on the Type O non-secretor diet.

I urge you to get with the blood type diet, find out your secretor status and then get swami express, the computer program put out by Dr. D'Adamo.  It will tell you exactly what to eat, and how to live, in order to thrive for your type.  
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 34 - 181
SandrAruba
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 11:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

53% Warrior
Ee Dan
Posts: 831
Gender: Female
Location: Aruba
Age: 49
I would really appreciate it if you let us know what your decision is and if you decide to try BTD, let us know how it's working out for you.




Logged Offline
Site Site Private Message Private message Reply: 35 - 181
Vegan Joe
Thursday, July 21, 2011, 11:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Summer: Realization, expansion.
Posts: 73
Gender: Male
Location: SF Bay Area
Age: 60
Quoted from SoCalSandy
I have not read through all the posts, but I want to tell you my Type O story.  I'm a former colon hydrotherapist and in the 1990's I really tried to avoid meat, and eat raw as much as possible.  I'm a Type O non-secretor.  I had a colon therapist friend back then who was over-run with respiratory problems, and now I understand why.  She was likely eating mostly grains and avoiding meat, as was the trend at that time for 'healthy people'.  I had plenty of aches and pains in my joints and I had no idea then that they were diet related.  I thought I was just 'getting older.'  I took plenty of supplements to try to 'fix' my aches and pains, and I also needed anti-acid remedies frequently.

At my best, back in those days, I weighed 140 pounds and carried more weight than was idea in my hips and thighs.  I worked out at they gym with weight training and I was toned and 'fit'.....at least I thought so then.

Just over two years ago I started eating the Type O non-secretor diet.  I now weigh about 125 pounds, sometimes less, every day, and my body has become so much more 'ideal'.  Those heavy thighs and big hips just melted away, and for the first time in my life I can see daylight between my thighs when I stand with my feet together.  I will be 68 in September, and I have no aches and pains in my joints at all, nor any digestive problems.  I never need anti-acid preparations, unless I slip up and eat wheat.  If I do that, I wake up during the night needing to have some baking soda in some water to ease my burning stomach.

I'm back at the gym now, doing the same weight training ritual I used to do.  I've been back at it for only six weeks and I have logged only about 16 hours so far doing weight training.  Already I can see my triceps, biceps, shoulders, and back are showing distinct definition, more so than they ever did way back then because I'm not wearing a layer of processed wheat and corn under my skin.  Muscles do have memory, I can see that now.  All that weight training I did back then is really paying off now that my body is thriving on the Type O non-secretor diet.

I urge you to get with the blood type diet, find out your secretor status and then get swami express, the computer program put out by Dr. D'Adamo.  It will tell you exactly what to eat, and how to live, in order to thrive for your type.  

Interesting first post for someone following the plan for 2 years.  



Happiness is a personal choice.
I am the sole source of all my sadness and joy.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 36 - 181
Andrea AWsec
Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:00am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI INFJ Warrior Taster
Kyosha Nim
Columnists and Bloggers
Posts: 7,686
Gender: Female
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 51
Joe we have many lurkers who never post.


MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
Logged
Site Site Private Message Private message Reply: 37 - 181
Easy E
Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:05am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh+ Explorer, non-secretor
Ee Dan
Posts: 1,252
Gender: Male
Location: Lafayette, LA
Age: 33
I think all the blood types existed for at least 10 million years.  But the genes are still there and they respond differently.  No one had to worry about blood type diet 5 million years ago, because everything they ate was natural and either meat or fruit or vegatable.  And most were lucky to live to be in their thirties!

Only in the past 100 or so years have people eaten so much with such ease or have had access to so many processed and unnatural foods.  
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 38 - 181
Vegan Joe
Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:05am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Summer: Realization, expansion.
Posts: 73
Gender: Male
Location: SF Bay Area
Age: 60
Quoted from Andrea AWsec
Joe we have many lurkers who never post.
I believe this is the incorrect use of the word never.  


Happiness is a personal choice.
I am the sole source of all my sadness and joy.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 39 - 181
grey rabbit
Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamix 47% Teacher-INFP
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 3,303
Gender: Female
Location: Seattle
Age: 58
Quoted from ruthiegirl
But some of the details such as "Type O developed during this period of pre-history" and "Type A developed during that period of pre-history" as well as "which one came first" is something that can never be proved or disproved. Nor does that really have any impact on blood types today.


It really depends on where and how you look for such information, like Dr. D said, it is out there. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18629539 Found this after a 5 minute search, I'm sure there is more where it came from. BUT, many people have a problem with the basics of a punnett square displaying ABO type, they are certainly not going to understand "wild type" etc.

Veganjoe, you are nit-picking.


“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”

John Wayne's last words

Revision History (2 edits)
grey rabbit  -  Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:53am
grey rabbit  -  Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:51am
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 40 - 181
Lloyd
Friday, July 22, 2011, 12:51am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
Administrator
Posts: 7,293
Quoted from Vegan Joe
I believe this is the incorrect use of the word never.  


We have many lurkers who never post. That is correct.

Sometimes, they decide to post and are no longer lurkers. There are many members who check in to read periodically and never post. Some have been members for years. They are lurkers who never post. There are many.  
Logged
Private Message Private message Reply: 41 - 181
Vegan Joe
Friday, July 22, 2011, 1:36am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Summer: Realization, expansion.
Posts: 73
Gender: Male
Location: SF Bay Area
Age: 60
OK OK lighten up  


Happiness is a personal choice.
I am the sole source of all my sadness and joy.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 42 - 181
Captain_Janeway
Friday, July 22, 2011, 1:59am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

47% Explorer/Super Taster
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 1,403
Gender: Female
Location: USA
Age: 43
When I was 24 years old I decided to try a vegetarian diet not a vegan diet but mostly vegetarian style diet. I eliminated all kinds of red meat, but ate only fish and occasionally poultry. Lots of fruits, veggies, grains, and nuts but rarely beans or legumes. At the time, I was also a junk food eater as well and hoped I could lose a few pounds, but mainly I was interested in decreasing my cholesterol level.

This type diet was very similiar to my type A non-secretor BTD. I did manage to lose some weight, and my cholesterol went down, but not what any of us here would expect for a blood type A non-secretor, Explorer genotype. My total cholesterol level went down to normal but my LDL level went up and my ratios actually got worse. Not only did my lipid panel change, but my hemoglobin/hematocrit went down a couple grams not enough iron from what I was eating.

Eliminating junk food and red meat went a long way to help the high cholesterol, but what I was doing was still not my optimal diet for health. I needed to eliminate grains and still needed some red meat as evidenced by  my personal SWAMI 2-3X per week. I know that if I need some meat as an A that you will benefit for sure as an O.


Rh Neg, Le(a+b-), NN, Fy(a-b+)

INTP/INTJ at work
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 43 - 181
thatoneguyonline
Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Early Spring: Awareness, desire.
Posts: 14
Gender: Male
Location: Indianapolis
Age: 30
Wow!  Great replies!

Sooks, I imagine I would have an issue with veal at this point as well.
I would possibly try lamb though as a local international grocery store sells it.
I don't think putting health before ethics (which is what I'm working on) is selfish.

brinyskysail, at this point I'm tired of feeling physically sub-par.

Vegan Joe, that's great to know a vegan version of type o is do-able!
I may end up trying to correct my grains etc as you've suggested.
Thanks for the info!

Lola, thanks for the links!  I'll check them out.

EquiPro, great story!
You sound like me... thinking about PETA videos trying to make the cravings go away.
I'm glad you mentioned becoming super-sensitive to wheat from drastically cutting it out,
I almost worry about that (if I were to go totally paleo) as I'm an all or nothing type of person.

Also, to your latter post, that's incredible that you found a market that will do that for you!

Easy E, I agree and good to know.

Patty H, Good to know.  I may end up going the co-op CSA route if I end up changing my diet.

Mayflowers, I agree.  Unfortunately that will probably never happen.

marjorie, wow!  Vegan for 15 years!  Yes, I think diet is something I'll always work on as well.

Victoria, yes I felt great (as a vegan) in the beginning as well for about the first 6 months.
Then I gained all my weight back and felt just as lethargic and sluggish as before.
I am interested in finding out my secretor status, sounds important.
Good to know you were able to get healthy from this!

grey rabbit
, I tend to agree.  I think that praying or thanking the animal before eating is great!

And to your latter post, I usually start with Google for research lol.

ruthiegirl, Yes!  I will document whatever I end up doing on YouTube.
It's a great way to document and get the word out there.

From reading the book, especially Cook Right, I can tell it's not "paleo" specific.
I may end up cutting gluten from my diet first and taking it from there.

jayneeo, I've heard of that book - but I don't know much about her.  I'll check that out, thanks!

Dr. D, I'm always glad to to hear your explanations!
And thanks for posting on my topic.  I really appreciate it.

ruthiegirl, whatever works!

kauaian, Yep... that's what I'm trying to do - listen to my body.

SoCalSandy, great story!  glad to know this is working for you as well.

SandrAruba, I sure will let you know what I end up doing.
I want to take August to research and then start (if I change) on September first.
That's my plan as of right now, anyway.

Easy E, true true.

Captain_Janeway, great to know - thanks!

So, today I took a look at Cook Right 4 Your Type and realized that almost every meal on almost every day contains non-paleo food (mostly grain or beans).  I'm confused as type O should drastically reduce grains and beans.  I'm guessing they threw a lot of neutral food into the meal plans so it doesn't sound strict possibly?  Anyway, I'm an all or nothing type of person so if I'm going to do this I could see myself wanting to cut out all grain and beans (paleo).

So... I'm like should I follow the blood type diet and just choose paleo food or Should I follow the paleo diet and try to generally avoid food that agglutinates type o blood?

Basically I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be a blood type dude, a paleo dude or both (or neither) lol.  Or should I do the blood type diet and then graduate to genotype / SWAMI?  So many options, the fun part is figuring it out.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies so far!
Logged Offline
Site Site Private Message Private message Reply: 44 - 181
grey rabbit
Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:32am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamix 47% Teacher-INFP
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 3,303
Gender: Female
Location: Seattle
Age: 58
I love swami! I followed the BTD for many years and was very successful with it. Along comes swami and I realize I have actually been eating like the "47%Teacher" that I am thinking that I was "cheating" and eating a fair share of avoids. I do have a tendency to eat what I feel I should eat

P.S. If I want to look something up I too usually start with google, it's just that with a scientific subject better info is likely to be found on pub med.


“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”

John Wayne's last words
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 45 - 181
thatoneguyonline
Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:43am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Early Spring: Awareness, desire.
Posts: 14
Gender: Male
Location: Indianapolis
Age: 30
As a newbie I'm still a little confused.
Is the genotype diet to be used in conjunction with the blood type diet or is that something totally different?

I have the genotype book too and noticed that hunter is separated from gatherer... whereas the type o diet is just a "hunter-gatherer" diet.  So the food list for hunter and gatherer is a little different then just eating type o, right?  I haven't done all the measurements or anything with genotype, but I "think" from what I can tell so far I would be a gatherer since I'm about 6 ft tall and weigh about 215 right now.  For some reason ER4YT type is grabbing at me more than genotype, though.  And thoughts of wanting to go "paleo" or do it paleo style keeps coming up.  I think because sometimes paleo people comment on my vegan videos lol.

I'm also confused as to what SWAMI even is... lol.
Logged Offline
Site Site Private Message Private message Reply: 46 - 181
honeybee
Friday, July 22, 2011, 3:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

INTJ
Ee Dan
Posts: 1,042
Gender: Female
Location: au
Quoted from thatoneguyonline
As a newbie I'm still a little confused.
Is the genotype diet to be used in conjunction with the blood type diet or is that something totally different?
... I'm also confused as to what SWAMI even is... lol.


If you are unsure wether to go GTD or BTD look here
http://www.dadamo.com/which_diet_is_right.htm

SWAMI Xpress is a personalized software app that you enter all your stats into and it gives you a blended BTD/GTD report inc food lists and other recs, HTH!
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 47 - 181
gulfcoastguy
Friday, July 22, 2011, 4:08am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

B to Bnonnie to Nomad, the journey continues
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 2,443
Gender: Male
Location: Ocean Springs, MS
Age: 54
Thatone,

Cook Right is one of Dr. D's older books. Some of the ingredients don't agree with his later research. You can find the later food values on the typebase using the icons at the top of the page. A secretor test would help you narrow down your food choices. We have recipebase in the icons also. This contains recipes submitted by many members and tells if the recipe is suitable for your particular bloodtype.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 48 - 181
strawberry
Friday, July 22, 2011, 4:32am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Early Spring: Awareness, desire.
Posts: 26
Location: BC, Canada
Hi Matt,

I was a vegetarian for 7 years and even went raw for about a year.  I was full of energy when I was raw, but then my hair started falling out, so I re-introduced fish to my diet.  I found that when I was vegetarian I was eating far too many grains and starches and couldn't figure out why I couldn't drop the weight.  Since I started the BTD diet, which has been only about 3 weeks, I've noticed that I've lost weight around my middle and I actually feel stronger.  Most of my joint pain has also diminished.  I'm rarely hungry either.  This diet feels right for me for the first time in my life.
Logged Offline
Private Message Private message Reply: 49 - 181
8 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 » All Recommend Thread
Print Print Thread

BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Eat Right 4 Your Type  ›  From Vegan to Blood Type O Paleo? *

Thread Rating
There is currently no rating for this thread