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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Eat Right 4 Your Type  ›  Cultured Vegetables
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Cultured Vegetables  This thread currently has 16,019 views. Print Print Thread
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Victoria
Saturday, April 3, 2010, 7:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Culturing vegetables is a healthy practice, which makes raw vegetables easier to digest and supplies a generous serving of enzymes and beneficial microorganisms.  This is a good place to share our techniques, which vegetables we use, successes, problems and results.  

I'd especially like to hear about using other vegetables.  Cabbage and sometimes carrots are very familiar.  Anyone culturing other vegetables?  Some Blood types and Genotypes are not eating cabbage.



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Lola
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beets, jicama.....anything goes  


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Victoria
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When you culture other vegetables than cabbage, do you add some cabbage to the mix, or can they stand alone?



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Andrea AWsec
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I use bok choy it is like cabbage but OK for A's and maybe for every blood type?


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I've done: Bok choy, Napa cabbage,  I do carrots, cucumbers and zucchini like sticks in water.  Like pickles basically.  But I, of course, don't use vinegar.  I just use the Body Ecology Diet cultured veggie starter.  I put garlic and ginger in almost everything.  I one time put a little bit of crushed up raspberries in with my cabbage.  That was a nice little zing in there.  

Ginger is always my favorite.  I eat the chunks by themselves sometimes.  Cultured or non cultured I eat lots of ginger.  Seems to help my stomach function.  And so does cultured veggies for sure!


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Victoria
Saturday, April 3, 2010, 10:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Andrea AWsec
I use bok choy it is like cabbage but OK for A's and maybe for every blood type?


Good idea.  I haven't read the blood type food lists recently, but it is good for every genotype except gatherers.  



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Victoria
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Quoted from JJR
I've done: Bok choy, Napa cabbage,  I do carrots, cucumbers and zucchini like sticks in water.  Like pickles basically.  But I, of course, don't use vinegar.  I just use the Body Ecology Diet cultured veggie starter.


I wonder if this would work if we're using a brine solution instead of a starter culture.



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I've done three batches of cultured veggies without a culture starter in the last month: the first was turnips, green onions, chili paste (an avoid, I know) to make turnip kimchee; the second was sliced carrots and ginger root in a salt-only brine; and the third was shredded carrots and shredded ginger root in a whey/salt brine. I have some beets, more carrots, and some turnips that I'm going to try next.

I have to say that I really liked the turnip kimchee, though it didn't seem to agree with me (probably the chili paste). I also really liked the sliced carrot/ginger in the salt-only brine. The whey was an experiment (the whey is supposed to speed up the fermenting process and allows one to use less salt) but I didn't find it as satisfying texturally to have the veggies shredded.


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balletomane
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Drea, thanks a lot for starting this thread. For O's, cabbages are an avoid... I'll try bak choy or maybe the Chinese-style cabbages which are actually of the chicory family, I heard.
So you can culture veggies without a starter? Is salt enough? How do you make the brine? And how long do you keep the veggies in the fridge before they're ready to be consumed?




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Drea
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balletomane, I didn't start the thread (Victoria did), but I've had good luck with using salt-only brine. The first and second batches were followed loosely after a video I found on YouTube with Sandor Katz, author of Wild Fermentation. HERE'S a link to the video. The trick to fermenting is to keep the veggies at room temperature, and not to refrigerate them until they are "done" to your liking. The cold will inhibit the process, and the salt kills any "bad" bacteria.


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balletomane
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Ooops, sorry... Thanks Victoria for taking the initiative!
Drea, thanks for the video and the tips! Very useful!!!  




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Drea
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Here's another good article on fermenting.


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Victoria
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Drea, that's a great article at the Wild Fermentation site.  It answered a lot of my questions, and here is a paragraph on how much salt to use:

How much salt do you use? Traditionally vegetables have been fermented with lots of salt. In addition to pulling water from the vegetables, salt hardens pectins in the vegetables, rendering them crunchier, and discourages the growth of bacteria other than lactobacilli. By inhibiting competing bacteria, salt enables the vegetables to ferment and to be stored for longer periods of time. Since preservation has historically been one of the important motivations for fermentation, ferments have tended to be quite salty. But for health-conscious people interested primarily in flavor and nutrition, less salt can be better. Salt lightly, to taste.
It is easier to add salt than to take it away, but if you oversalt, you can dilute by adding water and/or more vegetables. There is no magic proportion of salt the process requires—it’s just personal preference. As a starting point, try 3 tablespoons of salt per 5 pound of vegetables. More salt will slow the fermentation process; less (or none) will speed it up. Ferments with less salt may be more prone to surface molds. You can leave out the salt or use various mineral-rich substitutes such as celery juice (my favorite salt-free variation) or seaweed. Just be sure the vegetables are submerged in the liquid.



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Drea
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The two batches of salt-only brine were made with 3 Tablespoons of salt per 4 cups of water. I would say it was a tad bit saltier than I usually like. The batch I made with whey, I cut back the salt to 1 Tbs for 1 quart of water and 3 Tbs of whey.


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I grate carrots and ginger, squish them around with salt and stuff it into a jar...let it sit on the counter
for 3 days then refrigerate...  I eat it almost every day.


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My brother in law just uses salt.  I prefer the starter because...  well, it just makes me feel safer I guess.  I've had his and they are fine, but they are a little on the salty side.  But still very good.  So, you don't NEED the culture starter.  I just like to use it.  But even with that, I've still had batches that I though might not be completely right, and threw it out.  It just tasted, not right.  But I could've been wrong about it.


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Victoria
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At least some salt seems like a very good idea because salt discourages mold.



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Victoria
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What method do you all use to cover your container while the vegetables are sitting at room temperature?



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Lola
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a cotton cloth


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Victoria
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You make it sound so easy, Lola!  lol!!  



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Lola
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it sure is!!!


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geminisue
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I read below one of the u tube videos I watched that someone uses seaweed instead of salt to ferment with, I found this interesting, it didn't say how much.
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If we use a mason jar, can we use the self-seal type lid that comes with it?




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I've used a canning jar, a jar with a screw on lid, and a glass jar with a clamp seal. All three work as well as the others.


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balletomane
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Great! I'll give it a try  




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Drea
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In my experience (albeit limited) don't be afraid to try whatever strikes your fancy. If it's bad, start again.


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Quoted from Victoria
What method do you all use to cover your container while the vegetables are sitting at room temperature?


I stuff my vegetables into an old pickle jar, cover it with the lid and leave it alone for 3 days. Nothing fancy....no special technique.

Honestly, this is the easiest process ever.  Any vegetable, shredded or chopped, thrown into
a bowl, sprinkled with salt...a tsp or more.....use your hands to squish vegetables pretty
well for a few minutes until they give up their own natural juices....stuff everything into any old jar...push solids way down to the bottom of the jar so the liquid stays on top of all the vegetables.

And that's it...you're done.  Leave it out...wait a few days and taste it...If it needs more time,
wait another day or two.

Ideas:  cabbage, cauliflower (in small pieces), onions, garlic, ginger, red peppers, leeks, bits of seaweed (instead of the salt) -- I soak the seaweed first if I think it's too salty and dump the water and just use the seaweed)...carrots, daikon radish, beets, parsnips.  Grated or sliced..but better if all pieces wind up being the same size. I often use the shredding blade of my food processor and mix a lot of different vegetables together..


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I seal once my veggies are fermented and I stick them in the fridge, not before


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Possum
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Great thread & good advice...
But for me... I'm afraid it reminds me too much of too many tubs of uneaten coleslaw b4 they were thrown out & my unemptied compost...
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Yeah, I use the mason jars.  Or canning jars.  You have to relieve the pressure periodically.  Sometimes once a day with certain mixes.  Other ones can go longer.  But the pressure will build up.  I would just crack them open once a day.  I like to smell them and see how it's going.  The carrots usually bubble pretty extensively.

I do usually add a little salt.  


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Lola
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sorry about that Possum!
you re missing out on some wonderfully curative fair

AB,
try zucchini for
Quoted Text
bubble pretty extensively


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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I believe you I can't do cabbage...maybe I'll try zucchini & carrot one day
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Hmmmmm...  I've done zucchini and I don't remember them bubbling that much.  I'll have to do them again.


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Ok, I followed Lola's direction:  I used only salt and set up my watery cabbage for fermentation in a tightly closed glass jar leaving one inch of the juice above the shredded cabbage, between the cabbage & the top of the jar.    Now what happens next?  I wait 5 to seven days and what then?  Please help...I want to do it right.  
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Quoted from Rex
Ok, I followed Lola's direction:  I used only salt and set up my watery cabbage for fermentation in a tightly closed glass jar leaving one inch of the juice above the shredded cabbage, between the cabbage & the top of the jar.    Now what happens next?  I wait 5 to seven days and what then?  Please help...I want to do it right.  


Taste it every day....When you think it tastes fermented enough, refrigerate it and eat it...but mine never takes 5-7 days to ferment..usually 4 at the most.


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Chloe
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I was thinking that room temperature is different for us, depending on our individual climates.  For me, room temperature all year long might be between 67-74 degrees....cooler in winter, warmer in summer..but never tropically hot inside my house.  I'm wondering if leaving a jar to ferment in a really
warm room makes the fermenting process go faster...??  Just wondering.


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I do not shut the lid while it ferments, simply cover the stainless steel bowl with a cotton cloth.....once fermented, I transfer to a glass jar, seal and place in the fridge.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Victoria
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Most of the online directions call for weighing down the vegetables while the culturing is taking place, so that they are completely submerged in the brine.  So I think maybe the air space at the top might not be necessary.



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Rex
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Victoria...what can I use to weigh down the cabbage?  I saw a YouTube demonstration that did direct me to shut the lid down tight to seal-in the mixture.

Lola...If I leave the lid closed tightly, the liquid will not evaporate...do you think that allowing air to get to the mixture helps it to ferment?   Do you think this is the better way to do it?
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I just push it down every  day.


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Lola
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I first give it a good mix with a spoon, then I push it back down.....daily


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Chloe's right in that no water is needed. I just made another batch of turnip kimchee, this time slicing the turnips thinly, grating the carrots finely, adding chopped up green onion, salt, and a little chili paste. After working the veggies with my hands for a couple of minutes, the juices began to flow. The whole thing fit into my canning jar and as I stuffed the veggies in, the juices rose to the top.


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Rex
Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 1:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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This is such a great thread as I'm trying to ferment cabbage for the first time and I am not sure that I'm doing it right.  Right now I have the glass jar sealed tightly with a screw-on lid.  There seems to be so many ways to do this.  I'll just try them all & decide which one I prefer.  Wish me luck.  
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Has anyone tried okra?  They're the only pickles I like but as a gatherer can't have the vinegar. I like raw okra but this fermenting in getting interesting.  But would they be to thick? you really can't cut them open or they will get slimy. debbie


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I think okra would ferment just fine, though it will take longer.


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Hmmmm... Okra, that could be interesting.  Not sure if they'd break down enough.  I wouild think so because the wall of it isn't overly thick. Brussels sprouts whole won't work.  You definitely have to crunch them up or something.

Normal room temperature is fine.  You don't need it warm.  In fact some people say a cool, dark place.  But yeah, the colder it is, the longer it will take.


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I've done sauerkraut in canning jars. Say to put in closet. the jar lids will seal themselves just remember to put in a lined box, the jars will run over. Well if I get Okra up I'll try some. Hopefully next year I'll have our ceiler completed that will keep the temps. even, though it might be a little cool. I did loose sauerkraut once because it got to warm, or at least I think that's what happened. It was two soft. I like not using water. Our water sometimes has to much bleach in it. OK guess you got me.  


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Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 2:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from deblynn3
Our water sometimes has to much bleach in it. OK guess you got me.  


Use bottled (not distilled) water and sea salt if you need water. You could make a brine for okra just like you do for cucumbers to make pickles.


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just read some of the eariler comments. The carrot might "work" harder because they are a sweet vegetable I remember reading they have the most suger of all vegetables, which is maybe why they are a gatherer black dot. WH adds more sugar to his wine if it stops working.


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Victoria
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Depending on what type of container a person uses . . some use a big crockery pot or wide mouth gallon jar.  Some of those folks use a flat sterilized rock, lay it on top of the vegetables and then cover with cheesecloth.  Or set a small bowl down in the jar, with a stone on top to weigh it down.  

I have heard of using a whole cabbage leaf, folded several times and pushed down on the top of the mixture.  This sounds good to me.



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Do you use the fine sea salt.


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I'll need to get some. needed to anyway. and I'll go ahead and get some bottle water. So it'll be here. Who know might try something else.


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The fineness (or course-ness) of the sea salt is immaterial. Just use what you have on hand. Remember to sprinkle the salt lightly, and taste as you go. It's much easier to add salt than to remove it.

Try a batch without water and see what happens! The salt brings the moisture out of the veggies; it's pretty amazing.


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Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 10:24am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from deblynn3
just read some of the eariler comments. The carrot might "work" harder because they are a sweet vegetable I remember reading they have the most suger of all vegetables, which is maybe why they are a gatherer black dot. WH adds more sugar to his wine if it stops working.
I have read that cooking carrots increases their Glycemic Index massively (doubles it I think) & its ok to eat them raw... so wonder if culturing would count as raw or in between?

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balletomane
Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:49am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Would broccoli work?




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Quoted from balletomane
Would broccoli work?

Try it and let us know!



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I have done it with broccoli, but I did it two different ways. One time, I just used the stems and
grated them so they were like long stringy pieces and did the same with carrots...combined the
two in one jar......They cultured very well..Another time, I just used the flower-ette pieces (kinda small pieces) and mixed with similar sized pieces of cauliflower...plus garlic, Italian spices and that came out well.  I've found the best results come from all pieces in the jar being similar sizes.

Really, if you don't like what you've made, dump it and start again.  It's all good to eat but it's
just a matter of what you like best.


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Quoted from Lola
I do not shut the lid while it ferments, simply cover the stainless steel bowl with a cotton cloth.....once fermented, I transfer to a glass jar, seal and place in the fridge.


That's interesting!  I never heard it done that way!  But I have heard of people in the old days using wood buckets.


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Also, I leave my cabbage usually longer than 3 days.  I 8 days.  Sometimes the cabbage takes longer to get good than the others.  IMHO.


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Victoria
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Chloe, when you use things like little broccoli flowers and cauliflower, do you knead them with salt to bring out the juices?  Would it work that way for chunks?



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Chloe
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Quoted from Victoria
Chloe, when you use things like little broccoli flowers and cauliflower, do you knead them with salt to bring out the juices?  Would it work that way for chunks?


You know, I haven't done this recently so I'm sort of forgetting what I did...I honestly think that
I added the small pieces of unkneaded broccoli and cauliflower to a batch of other
vegetables that were  salted and kneaded...All will ferment  based on the other vegetables that are prepared properly with salt.  Just as long as the broccoli and cauliflower pieces aren't huge. And you wind up with enough liquid to cover all vegetables.

I think if you tried to knead cauliflower, you'd  crumble the flowerettes...and same with the broccoli...All the little pieces would fall off in the process.  And besides, when you make pickles, you don't have the ability to knead a whole cucumber.  And difficult to knead carrot slices.

Perhaps, grated carrots, small chunks of broccoli, cauliflower, onion, garlic. I think the carrots might provide enough liquid to allow me to stuff the other vegetables down far enough so liquid covers them.  Will have to experiment. I know I did this with shredded carrots and shredded
broccoli stems.

I was reading an article online about culturing vegetables and it said to be careful that all your
utensils, hands and container are very clean...otherwise, you might spoil the batch by fermenting some bad bacteria into the mix that might be left in an unclean container.  If you ever see
a batch turn out grey and smelling bad, throw the batch away.  It's tainted with bad bacteria.
The result should always taste pickled...



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Yeah, I use scalding hot water on all utensils, hands (as much as I can stand of course) and glass jars.

When I do the cabbage, I tamp it down in the jar with the end of a pastry roller thing.  That seems to work well.


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So now after reading all your suggestions I have started a half-gallon mason jar of fermented veggies  !

Yesterday I was out the whole day and when I came home late, I noticed the brine had overflown despite the tight lid. When I opened it there was a mini explosion, !

It must have been the carrot  ! I must say it was a wonder to behold this natural creation of bubbles. No carbonation necessary, !

Here are the ingredients I have used:
Beet
Bok choy
Carrot
Garlic
Ginger
Jersusalem artichoke
Re bell pepper
Red onion
Zucchini

It smells so good. Now I'm wondering when I should start to put the jar in the fridge and how long I can keep it. I know there is no hard-and-fast rule but the veggies have started to become soft. Is that a sign that they are getting "ready"? Or should I wait for at least three days?




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I suggest you taste them at least once a day. I like mine on the sour side, so that's how long I leave them at room temperature to ferment. Then, when I've "decided" they're done, they go into the fridge.


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balletomane
Sunday, April 11, 2010, 1:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I see. So "sour" is the yardstick, eh? I like sour too. Let me go and have a taste  




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Victoria
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Quoted from balletomane

Yesterday I was out the whole day and when I came home late, I noticed the brine had overflown despite the tight lid. When I opened it there was a mini explosion, !

It must have been the carrot  ! I must say it was a wonder to behold this natural creation of bubbles. No carbonation necessary, !


So this is the reason Lola covers hers with cloth until the fermenting is finished and ready to go in the fridge!  



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Quoted from balletomane
I see. So "sour" is the yardstick, eh? I like sour too. Let me go and have a taste  



It's the non vinegar of vinegars.  Except I don't think it's acidic.  But the flavor is similar.  Kind of.  It similar enough to someone who doesn't eat vinegar any longer.


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Victoria
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I think one of the most delicious things is the liquid from the fermented vegetables.  It's great poured on stir-fry as a seasoning, in place of salt.  



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bingo!


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Quoted from Victoria
I think one of the most delicious things is the liquid from the fermented vegetables.  It's great poured on stir-fry as a seasoning, in place of salt.  

Great idea, thanks Victoria!





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I wouldn't cook with it, but dribble it on before eating.  



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Mickey
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I came here to ask a question about how fermented veggies should taste.

Quoted Text
I like mine on the sour side


I think Drea may have answered my question?.  I made some fermented kale awhile back but it turned out kind of sour tasting, i've been leary of eating it because i thought it might be bad.  Soo if "sour" is good, then how would we know if the fermentation process has gone wrong.  Do they have to be sour to be the most beneficial, i'm not too much into sour things?.

Thanks!
Mickey


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I haven't made it yet, but I buy a raw locally fermented sauerkraut.  I wouldn't describe  it as sour.  It has a wonderful, complex, slightly salty, LIVE flavor.  Almost bubbly, but not quite.    



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The stuff I do is pretty tangy.  But sauerkraut might have other flavors in them to change things up a bit.


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Soo it sounds like i'll be fine eating my sour kale!.  


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Quoted from JJR



It's the non vinegar of vinegars.  Except I don't think it's acidic.  But the flavor is similar.  Kind of.  It similar enough to someone who doesn't eat vinegar any longer.


The bacteria produce lactic acid. The fermenting liquid IS acidic.

If you cook with it, then you get the acidic tang without harmful vinegar, but you don't get the beneficial bacteria you get from consuming it raw. It's best to drizzle on the liquid to foods after cooking.

If your fermenting goes bad, you might see fuzzy mold growing on the top. I've heard that it's OK to scrape off the moldy layer and a bit below it, and then consume the rest, but I've never felt comfy doing that. When something got moldy (usually from too little brine covering the top of the fermenting veggies) I've just tossed it. If it looks like slightly fizzy sourkraut, then it's fine.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Victoria
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Yes, it is slightly acidic, but different from sour, if that makes sense.

My body really doesn't do well with citrus juices which are very acidic in my stomach (I know, they're supposed to have an alkaline result, but not for me.) But the fermented vegetables don't really feel like acid.  Hard to describe.  



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Rex
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Today I started a new batch with cabbage, carrots and onion.  I'm loving it so much now...I don't want to be without it.  When I get to the end of a former batch, I start-up another batch.  I read that the sugar in the carrots speeds up the fermentation process...this is the first time I'm using carrots...I'll let you know if it works that way for me.  I may try adding beets next time.  My Bubby used to make sour-borcht in a large wooden barrel, covered with a large piece of cheesecloth, using the fermentation process.  I remember seeing her skin off the foam from the top until it reached the desired sourness.  Then we ate it with boiled potatoes and sour cream...I wouldn't add the potatoes or the sour cream now but remembering how it used to be is fun...great memories of days gone by that will never be again except in my mind.  
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Rex- curious what is a Bubby?
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geminisue..."Bubby" is what I used to call my maternal grandmother.  I never knew what the real word for grandma is I just know that's what we all called her...I never questioned it. It's a jewish thing...I called my grandpa Zada.  Perhaps some other jewish posters can elaborate on this more fully than I can.
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That's a sweet name for your grandmother, Rex.

My mother called her mother "Mom", so that's what I called her, too.

So my mother was "Mother" and my grandmother was "Mom".



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Quoted Text
the fermented vegetables don't really feel like acid.  Hard to describe.


enzyme laden!


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well i made my first batch oF carrot, onion garlic fermented veges  this week and its started to get some ferementation action happening, its rather exciting and i have been mentioning it to everyone!! SO THANKS EVERYONE for your great ideas and advice !  i am a fermenter converter !!!   so good to have an alternative to yoghurt which i love but it does not go down well  with myu nonnie status
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Victoria
Sunday, April 18, 2010, 3:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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That's a great thing about cultured vegetables . . live beneficial micro-organisms!  



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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JJR
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And they're also GOOD EATS    


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Drea
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If you've ever tasted ume plum vinegar (brine), it's very close in the sour/salty flavor that I'm looking for in my cultured/fermented veggies.


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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geminisue
Monday, April 19, 2010, 1:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks Rex, how interesting.
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Victoria
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Quoted from Drea
If you've ever tasted ume plum vinegar (brine), it's very close in the sour/salty flavor that I'm looking for in my cultured/fermented veggies.


YES!  So true, and that stuff is awesome.  



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
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battle dwarf
Monday, April 19, 2010, 4:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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dose any one have any sugestons on how i might make my own kombucha? it is a fermented tea and i love it, it is rather exspenive though, so i wondered if i might just make it myself.


nothing to do? who has that!?
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''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Quoted from Rex
geminisue..."Bubby" is what I used to call my maternal grandmother.  I never knew what the real word for grandma is I just know that's what we all called her...I never questioned it. It's a jewish thing...I called my grandpa Zada.  Perhaps some other jewish posters can elaborate on this more fully than I can.


Bubbie and Zadie are the Yiddish words for Grandma and  Grandpa. Remember that these words can only be "correctly" spelled with Hebrew letters, so English spellings will vary quite a  bit.

Actually, I'm not even 100% sure that Yiddish is spelled with Hebrew letters, or if it's only  based on Hebrew letters- there might be a few variations (just as English and Spanish use mostly the same alphabet but Spanish includes accent symbols over some letters that English language keyboards can't easily do.) I can read Hebrew (if it includes the vowel symbols, which won't be included in anything meant for native speakers over age but I only know a handful of yiddish words and the proper spellings for none of them.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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balletomane
Monday, April 19, 2010, 2:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I was wondering if eating cultured veggies would give you gas.
It seems to make me gassy and also causes some reflux.
But I enjoy a small amount daily... it tastes so good!




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JJR
Monday, April 19, 2010, 3:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My guess is you may have yeast and it's stirring it up.  But it could just be messing with you.  I don't know.  


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Victoria
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Quoted from battle dwarf
dose any one have any sugestons on how i might make my own kombucha? it is a fermented tea and i love it, it is rather exspenive though, so i wondered if i might just make it myself.


My daughter has made kombucha for years.  The easiest way is to find someone who will give you a bit of the "mother" culture.  It looks like a big blob of pond scum, but in a friendly way.     Then you can use one of the countless recipes that are on the internet, substituting compliant ingredients.  My daughter made hers with green tea and sweetened it with maple sugar or honey.  I don't know if agave would work, since she never tried it.

I suggest a note on a bulletin board of your local health food store, or post a request on your local Craigslist, or Freecycle.

p.s.  This is if you don't want to buy the stuff.  If you don't mind paying for it, you can go to etsy.com and sometimes find two or three people who are selling the fresh "mother" sealed in plastic.  My daughter did that route once.  But usually she has been able to find someone locally who just gave her a start.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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Drea
Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 4:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from battle dwarf
dose any one have any sugestons on how i might make my own kombucha? it is a fermented tea and i love it, it is rather exspenive though, so i wondered if i might just make it myself.


Do a search on YouTube.com. There are a number of detailed instructional videos posted. I thought about trying my hand at making a mother, but really don't have the space for it. Cultured veggies are about it for me.



It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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Lola
Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 4:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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or ask around in your community.....
someone might have a baby to offer!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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Possum
Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 10:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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re kombuchas...I've seen them asked for & offered on freecycle.com (insert your city's name) which is a worldwide site...
I have three babies in the fridge I got given when I thought I could use them... Must pack them up & give them away
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Ligia
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kescah
Thursday, April 22, 2010, 2:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Is there some way to bookmark a thread so I can finish reading this when I get home from my trip?   I don't want to forget.


You guys are great!

On the Warpath! Grrrr, watch out!
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ruthiegirl
Thursday, April 22, 2010, 2:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I don't beleive there's any way to do that with the forum itself, but you can always use your computer's browser to set this thread as a bookmark, similar to how I have the BTD main forum page bookmarked. Or you can email yourself the link to this thread if you may not be on the same computer later.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Lola
Thursday, April 22, 2010, 2:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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click on your name, then click on find latest posts button


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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kescah
Thursday, April 22, 2010, 3:55pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks both.


You guys are great!

On the Warpath! Grrrr, watch out!
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maukik
Sunday, October 24, 2010, 10:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Now that cabbage is in season where I am, I want to try to follow your method for fermenting cabbage, Lola.  I watched a few videos on youtube, but they make it sound much more complicated than you do.  

If I understand it right, you just chop your cabbage (or whatever), place it in a bowl with the salt, cover with cloth, let it sit, stirring each day until you feel it is done. At that time, place it in a container, seal it and put into the refridgerator.  This way appeals to me because it sounds so easy.

After watching the videos I had a couple of questions.  Do you cover the cut cabbage with cabbage leaves or anything else, then weigh it down?  They all seemed to place great emphasis on that. Do you pound your cabbage to extract water before putting it into the bowl? Does it need to be covered in water if I can't crush enough water out of it?

Also, I don't have a stainless steel bowl.  I just put mine into a white glass pyrex bowl.

I just chopped my first head, put it into the bowl, layering a little cabbage with a little salt and covered the bowl with cheese cloth.  Is that it?  



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Lola
Monday, October 25, 2010, 3:57am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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if you let your processor pulse the cabbage, it lets out quite a bit of liquid

this, plus the added salt and pounding some weight on the whole thing, brings out yet more juices.....enough to cover the batch.....I have never had to add more liquid of any kind to my veggies......


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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ruthiegirl
Monday, October 25, 2010, 5:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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If you do add any liquid to fermenting veggies, it should be salt water (brine) ,not pure water. The point of the salt is to inhibit the growth of unhealthy organisms- the "good germs" grow just fine in salty water while the "bad germs" don't. So pure water at the top of the veggies may result in the top layer getting moldy instead of fermenting nicely.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Victoria
Monday, October 25, 2010, 5:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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From what I've heard, the food processing, or pounding, or kneading is an important step in breaking down the cell walls of the vegetables and bringing out the natural juices.  It's not enough to just put the vegetables into a bowl with the salt.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
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~Mary Jean Irion
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ruthiegirl
Monday, October 25, 2010, 5:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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From what I've read, the crushing and pounding helps speed up the process. If the pieces are bigger and just layered with salt, it will probably still work but take longer. It should also be stirred up so the salt is well mixed into the vegetables.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Mayflowers
Monday, October 25, 2010, 6:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chloe

I stuff my vegetables into an old pickle jar, cover it with the lid and leave it alone for 3 days. Nothing fancy....no special technique.


How does the wild bacteria work if you cover the jar? Is it already in the vegetables?
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ruthiegirl
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Some wild bacteria are already on the vegetables. Some are already in the jar. Many get into the veggie mixture while you're working with it, mixing it up, etc.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Lola
Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I do not cover my stash of ferments to be, until they re ready, 5 to 6 days max, then I jar them and stick in the fridge......


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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geminisue
Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks Rex and Ruthiegirl- now I understand fully that Bubby means Grandma!  
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Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yesterday I chopped my cabbage small and crushed it, one quarter of the head at a time.  I didn't get much water.  I put it into a bowl with some salt at each quarter of a head.  I put a little more salt on the top.  I just covered the bowl with cheese cloth.  There still was not much water.  I stirred it this morning.  A little more water, not much.  

I had been under the impression that I would have a lot more water and if I didn't, I needed to add some (with salt, of course).  

Would it be too late to add water or is it even necessary?  I just don't want to grow any bad germs.  All of the cabbage has salt but does not have water.  


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Drea
Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Did you knead it with your clean hands? That's the way to get the water out of the vegetables.


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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maukik
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No, Drea.  I pounded, crushed it with the end of my ice cream scooper.  I will try kneading it with my hands next time.  Thank you for the tip.
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Drea
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There's a good video on youtube.com by Sandor Katz, the guy who wrote Wild Fermentation.

Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i77hU3zR-fQ


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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Lola
Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 2:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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yaeli
Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 4:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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A week ago I made the first batch of cultured beetroots - the first time in my life I prepared any cultured vegetable, and I love it. I am very content, don't even blush... I read this thread, especially Lola's instructions, watched Mr. Sandor Katz' video, and followed: sliced the beets, salted lightly, squeezed and mixed, put in a ceramic jar, put a sealed full raki bottle (what do I keep it for, topically use as first aid against tummy aches mixed with olive oil) over it as a pound, covered with a kitchen cotton towel, later with a sheet of baking paper and left to decorate the counter. It turned out excellent. All my life beetroot has been a problem for me. My late mother, who was a marvelous cook, yet strong-headed, used to make a beetroot borscht which I simply detested. Other possibilities: salads and soups, I didn't  care for. This time, I thought, I've found my personal solution - proved true! I truly enjoy it this way.    I love pickles, and for almost 5 years now I don't touch them. The homemade way makes a tremendous difference. I nibble a few slices each morning - 'my' creation, yay!   Love it.


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Lola
Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 5:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Victoria
Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 3:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yaeli!  



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
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~Mary Jean Irion
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Mayflowers
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 2:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thanks to Chloe's tips I finally made a jar of veggies last night. I hope it comes out.. I hope they're edible. Any tips is appreciated. I used a glass jar but I couldn't get much brine out of it after stuffing it in the jar and I added some water but..it still looked like it wasn't very covered.
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Henriette Bsec
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 2:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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If veggies isn´t very juicy - I sometimes add some water - that works well.
What kind of veggies did you use ?


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JJR
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 4:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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It's OK to add water.  

Way to go!!!  I bet you'll love them.  Take it slow when you eat them. Don't just gobble tons of them up.  You may start to detox very heavily and feel awful.  At least, that's how it is for me.

What did you make?


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Mayflowers
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 6:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I took broccoli slaw and used that. It is broccoli, carrots and a couple of shreds of cabbage.
But it was in the bag so it might have been dry to start with. Next time I'll chop fresh. I was in a hurry. Oh I'm glad it's ok to add water.  
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Patty H
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 7:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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What are cultured veggies  


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Drea
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I just made another batch (first time this year), thanks to your inspiration, Mayflowers . This version has thinly sliced turnips, ginger root, and garlic cloves, plus shredded carrots, and salt. My mixture didn't need any water; that came from the veggies themselves...Mayflowers, did you "massage" the slaw with salt before stuffing into the jar?

Cultured, or fermented, veggies are vegetables that are allowed to sit out at room temperature once they are covered in salt water. Sandor Katz explains it nicely HERE.


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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grey rabbit
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 9:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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You're going for some probiotics Patty, cultured veggies are producing something similar to yogurt. MF yogurt is a diamond for me so I use a little yogurt whey as added liquid, I know for some of you yogurt is an avoid so that doesn't work. I made a half gallon a while back, was a little hesitant about the whole process but they turned out fine and I usually have at least a cup a day - I used carrots and a little broccoli.


“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”

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Drea
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I've tried using whey as a starter, but found that I liked the flavor of the salt-only versions better. Btw, yogurt is a diamond for me, too.


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bluejay
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 9:55pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Drea
Cultured, or fermented, veggies are vegetables that are allowed to sit out at room temperature once they are covered in salt water. Sandor Katz explains it nicely HERE.

Thanks for the link Drea.  I have been wanted to give it a try, but not daring enough without step by step instruction. Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend to test it out.



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Pixu
Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 10:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just made some beet kvass (thanks Ruthie   ) and a small jar of cultured beet as well.. I can't wait to have some in my salad    


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Drea
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I'm so impatient about waiting for my turnips to finish fermenting; I want them now! tee hee


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Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 11:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Are cultured veggies good for O's?  I am assuming yes if Ruthie and Pixu are making/eating them?

They are rich in probiotics


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Drea
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Easy-to-Make Fermented Vegetables Boost Immunity and Improve Health

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/027443_vegetables_food_health.html#ixzz1UZp4iY9W

"Healthy bacterial cultures such as Lactobacillus are present in cultured vegetables. The more healthy microflora one has the more the body`s receptors are blocked when exposed to dangerous bacteria and viruses. Fermented vegetables are high in antioxidants and benefit health in many ways, including:

Preserving nutrients and breaking them down into more easily digestible forms
Creating new cultures, which then create B vitamins such as folic acid, riboflavin, niacin, thiamin and biotin
Removing toxins from food: all grains contain phytic acid which blocks absorption of zinc, calcium, iron and magnesium. Soaking and fermenting grains neutralizes the phytic acid.
Promoting digestive health by flooding the intestines with beneficial microflora

Sandor Ellix Katz, author of Wild Fermentation credits fermented foods as being key to his superb health and energy, despite living with AIDS for many years. Many healing diets including macrobiotics and Ann Wigmore`s raw food and wheatgrass diet use fermented foods as a way to regain health. Macrobiotics uses miso - a fermented soybean paste - as well as tempeh and tamari, two other cultured soy products. Ann Wigmore`s diet uses rejuvelac, a beverage made from fermented sprouted grains.

Beneficial bacteria are readily available on vegetables and in the air, so no starter culture is necessary. Simply provide the right environment with:

Unrefined sea salt, which inhibits unwanted bacteria
Liquid, which prevents the vegetables from molding.

Cabbage is often used as the base because it is loaded with the beneficial bacteria required. Other vegetables, such as carrots, scallions, and broccoli, can also be added."


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Quoted from 815
Any tips is appreciated.
I open up a capsule of probiotics and mix into the veggies.  You can just use the "wild" bacteria that are in the air, but adding a probiotic speeds up the process and gives you more control over which organisms are predominant.  Also, use plenty of salt, preferably canning salt.  That will help draw water out for the brine.
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Drea
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TJ, what a great idea! I hadn't thought of adding a Polyflora to the mix. Next time!


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This sounds really great, except I am still somewhat confused.  Cabbage is a black dot for me but sauerkraut is an avoid, as is pickle brine, so I assumed that anything in brine would be an avoid  

Would love to hear some O's comment on this.


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Drea
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Not an O but...I suppose the question is why is brine an avoid? Brine is just salted water, but perhaps the issue is something I'm just not seeing?


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yup for me the same... no s-kraut or similarities for me either


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Hmmm Patty. In my SWAMI, cabbage and sourkraut have always had the same rating. Pickles have always been an avoid, but so have cucumbers. Dr D has yet to evaluate beet kvass or carrot/ginger kraut (or any other lacto-fermented veggies other than the readily available pickled cucumbers and sourkraut) so I don't know how they'd work for you. There might be something else happening in the fermenting process that's bad for you personally, even though the probiotic part is good for everybody and the "whole product" has always worked well for me.

Does SWAMI allow you to have ume plum vinegar? That's the liquid from lacto-fermented ume plums, and since it's evaluated on SWAMI, that might be a way to gauge whether or not the lacto-fermentation itself is a problem for you.

I do know from personal experience (that predates my discovery of BTD) that I feel good when I get enough probiotic foods in my diet, and I don't feel as good when I neglect them. Beet kvass is usually my probiotic of choice, because it ferments in only 2 days and is easier to make than kraut (carrot or cabbage.) I also find it easier to have half a cup of kvass in the morning, rather than trying to remember to include fermented veggies with a meal.

You basically have two choices. You can skip fermented veggies, and get your probiotics from supplements, if you're not comfortable with the experiment. Or you can give it a try and see how beet kvass and/or other fermented veggies make you feel.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Ruthie, can I add a Polyflora A to beet kvass?  Would there be any benefits?


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I usually innoculate beet kvass with a teaspoon or so of kvass from the previous batch (the first batch after not making it for a while needs a bit longer to ferment, maybe 3 days instead of 2.) I can't see any harm to adding a polyflora A to the kvass, and it would lead to the kvass being high in the probiotics Dr D decided were good for As, plus it should speed up the fermentation a  bit (as much as using a teaspoon of the last batch does.)

The original instructions for kvass (from Sally Fallon, online) called for whey to innoculate the first batch, which I never did, because I turned to beet kvass as a non-dairy source of probiotics.


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I gave credit to GCG for a lemon vinegar recipe the other day, my bad after reading my note it was geminisue. I can't find that thread had to do something about salad dressings. anyway.....


She hadn't tired it and there is no mention of salt. The juice of the lemon is just added to water and placed in the cupboard for 2 weeks. So would it still be cultured? Or does a lemon have to much acid to culture? Has anyone tried this.


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Mayflowers
Wednesday, August 10, 2011, 5:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Drea
I just made another batch (first time this year), thanks to your inspiration, Mayflowers . This version has thinly sliced turnips, ginger root, and garlic cloves, plus shredded carrots, and salt. My mixture didn't need any water; that came from the veggies themselves...Mayflowers, did you "massage" the slaw with salt before stuffing into the jar?.


Thanks for the recipe..   I'll try turnips.  Yes, I squeezed and rubbed for about 5 mins. I got some water out of them but not much..    Maybe because it was precut in the bag ??
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Mayflowers
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Quoted from ruthiegirl
instead of 2.) I can't see any harm to adding a polyflora A to the kvass, obiotics.

Thanks for the tip, I'm going to try that in the next batch of vegies..

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JJR
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Quoted from TJ
I open up a capsule of probiotics and mix into the veggies.  You can just use the "wild" bacteria that are in the air, but adding a probiotic speeds up the process and gives you more control over which organisms are predominant.  Also, use plenty of salt, preferably canning salt.  That will help draw water out for the brine.


I'm not really sure if that's completely how it works.  I think the bacteria actually come from the vegetable itself. (if you don't use a starter of some sort)  Unless you're not putting it in an airtight jar.  I use the canning jars with the rubbler lids.  I think the lactic acid comes from the breakdown of the vegetable.  I think.  Now if you're talking sourdough, that may be the case.  


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Mayflowers
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Some of the members here who can have yogurt, use their Polyflora to make it. I haven't done that yet.. that's next for me too.  
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Mayflowers
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Quoted from Drea
I'm so impatient about waiting for my turnips to finish fermenting; I want them now! tee hee


I'm afraid to try it..   mine has been on the kitchen counter for a day and a 1/2 now. How long do you keep it out Drea?  Chloe said 3 days.
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Chloe
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Quoted from 815


I'm afraid to try it..   mine has been on the kitchen counter for a day and a 1/2 now. How long do you keep it out Drea?  Chloe said 3 days.


You gotta remember that a jar sitting 3 days on my kitchen counter is a different temperature from 3 days in Drea's kitchen.  

My beet kvass is now on it's third day......I just added one Polyflora.  Going to taste it later....

OK....just tasted it now...still kind of salty.  Not ready Ruthie, right?


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Drea
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Quoted from 815


I'm afraid to try it..   mine has been on the kitchen counter for a day and a 1/2 now. How long do you keep it out Drea?  Chloe said 3 days.


It's warm here, so I usually leave it out between 1-3 days.I tasted the turnips last evening, but they weren't done yet.


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Drea
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I like my fermented veggies on the sour side, so I usually leave them to ferment (culture) longer.


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Mickey
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Ruthie,

Is beet kvass allowed on your swami?.  For me it's a black dot avoid.  Are you saying that beet kvass would be considered differently than beets as far as its rating?.  I would love to make beet kvass again, i made it once and stopped because it's a black dot avoid for me.  I think i may have made it when i thought i was an explorer?.  It was so easy to make, i would love to beable to use it as a primary fermented vegetable.

BTW, for any fermenters out there.  I use a potato masher (i don't use it to mash potatoe's) to mash spinach when i ferment it, it really helps get alot of juice out of it for the fermentation process.!  


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Drea
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Fermented spinach? I've not thought about fermenting leafy greens. Great suggestion!


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ruthiegirl
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Beet kvass isn't listed on my SWAMI at all. Beets and beet juice are both beneficials right now, but I was consuming beet kvass even when SWAMI called them both neutral.

I would reccomend fermenting neutral or beneficial veggies, and avoiding fermented black dots.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Quoted from JJR


I'm not really sure if that's completely how it works.  I think the bacteria actually come from the vegetable itself. (if you don't use a starter of some sort)  Unless you're not putting it in an airtight jar.  I use the canning jars with the rubbler lids.  I think the lactic acid comes from the breakdown of the vegetable.  I think.  Now if you're talking sourdough, that may be the case.  


With sourdough the bacteria also come from the wheat itself, not the air.


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I really like fermented jicama.  I shred it up with carrots.  I started a batch on Sunday, and it should be ready by Friday.

Ruthie, isn't kvass a yeast ferment?  Or do you made yours differently?
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Quoted from grey rabbit


With sourdough the bacteria also come from the wheat itself, not the air.


Aaah.  There you go.  I'm not sure where the culture from the air theory came from and if it's true or not.  I had been taught it's from the food itself also.  If I remember correctly.  And I do believe it was from the Nourishing Traditions book.  I'd have to go back and find the spot.  Or maybe it was Donna Gates' book.  Hmmm...


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The salt causes the lacto-fermentation in veggies. However, if you oversalt the veggies, the fermentation will slow down.

I wash my cabbage in water after chopping it into bite size pieces and drain the water. Then, I salt the cabbage in bowl, cover it, and let it sit for at least a good 1-3 hours. I found that salting it before I go to bed is the easiest. When you wake up and check the cabbage, you will start to smell some of the fermentation.

I rinse the salt off the cabbage once and add my kimchee spices. I use whey from my milk kefir instead of adding more water to the pepper paste.

I also use sweet apple cider (not the vinegar but the unpasteurized drink which has loads of probiotics) in place of Asian pear (used for sugar to feed the lacto-fermentation and to add a crisp sweetness).

My kimchee is a probiotic variation I came up with. So far, the fermentation is really well done, if I can say so myself, and the flavor is not much different from traditional kimchee. I just make mine less spicy and bit sweeter.

I figured that the kefir whey and sweet apple cider were introducing enough new strains of probiotics on top of the lacto-fermentation so I did not open up a probiotic capsule.


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On sourdough Fermentation

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

The fermentation happens in two ways - anaerobic and aerobic. While the fermentation happens because of the component in the grain (bacteria strains), oxygen is needed because some strains use the oxygen.

I just use a coffee filter top for my starter dough so it could breathe. I had to stick it in the fridge when I had fruit flies. The flies are gone so the dough will come back out.  


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Mayflowers
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I tasted it this morning. It tastes like saurkraut!  Does that mean it's done? I need the experts..
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Drea
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Yes, I think it's done; but more importantly, do you like the taste?


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Mayflowers
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eh..I'm not a saurkraut lover.  But It's good for me. I'll try different vegies. I have jimica as a neutral, I can use that.  I can't use any cabbage.   It's all an avoid. Even saurkraut..  I can use bok choy. I wonder how that tastes?
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Mayflowers
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Quoted from Drea
Yes, I think it's done; but more importantly, do you like the taste?


How do you eat it Drea?
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Just eat it.  Or put it on some meat.  Or whatever.  It's probably a really good idea to eat it as a relish with meat, because it will help you digest your food.  But as I said, take it slow.  It may detox you.  That may not be a problem for you, but I get lots of pain and inflammation from detoxing.

It helps your adrenals too.  It does lots of good stuff.


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Mayflowers
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I had some on my veggie burger for lunch ... surprisingly tasty!  Broccolikraut.     I don't think  I want it any more sour so I put it in the refrigerator. How long does it last in the fridge?
Thanks JJR. I'm going to try it on fish.  I can have veal once a week on my SWAMI as well so that might work well. It felt good in my stomach!   No digestion problems!   Does it taste very different if you add a cap of Polyflora to it?  
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I just mix my cultured veggies (esp. kimchee) with brown rice and add meat or sardines to it. Korean always have kimchee placed on their rice during their meals. they would wrap it in sushi nori (seaweed), too. Koreans usually roast the seaweed in sesame oil with salt. I prefer the seaweed raw and now know why - sesame oil is an avoid.

You can try mixing your grains/rice with cultured veggies and eating it.


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Drea
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Quoted from 815


How do you eat it Drea?


Right out of the jar!



I just got back from the organic market with some fresh carrots and light red beets. I'm going to make another batch of cultured veggies, once I've had a moment to unwind from the trip into Santa Fe.

Thank you Mayflowers for starting this thread; you've got me back into culturing my veggies!


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I'll let you know how this turns out...but today, this is what went into my jars for fermentation.

shredded cucumbers (the kirby variety...farm fresh ones), garlic, ginger, radishes, and one shredded
apple.  I didn't have any more carrots so I thought the apple might add the right amount of sweetness.
WOW, it produced tons of liquid....and I added two Polyflora As because this filled two jars...I'm
going to be eating this until I explode....but I love the idea of just experimenting with all sorts of
vegetables until I find a blend that I love.  Oh, I added a few T of chopped cilantro to this.  It's either
going to taste great....or disgusting.  


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Quoted from 815
I had some on my veggie burger for lunch ... surprisingly tasty!  Broccolikraut.     I don't think  I want it any more sour so I put it in the refrigerator. How long does it last in the fridge?
Thanks JJR. I'm going to try it on fish.  I can have veal once a week on my SWAMI as well so that might work well. It felt good in my stomach!   No digestion problems!   Does it taste very different if you add a cap of Polyflora to it?  


Polyflora didn't change the taste of my last batch.

It lasts in the refrigerator quite awhile because it's already fermented....Probably if it starts
looking funky and it's been many weeks, start over with a new batch....but if you're eating some every day, you might just eat it up quickly.  What I do is use smaller jars....make a smaller
batch.  I have quart jars but it takes a lot to fill them.  I have some small saved mayo jars that
are probably a pint.  The perfect size for how fast I eat up one jar.



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You've given me some ideas, Chloe! Did you shred all the veggies or slice some? I like different textures, so I often julienne some, shred some, and slice some in the same batch...

I may add carrot to the first batch of beets, and add apple to the second. I almost always add ginger root because I love it so much!


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When kimchee gets too fermented (tangy and soft), Koreans make soup out of it. Stir fried aged kimchee over eggs taste quite good. You might want to do that if your cultured veggies ever get too tangy. You lose some of the probiotic qualities since you are heating up the veggies but fermented fried veggies taste really good with cheese. An omelet would be really good.


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I just made another batch of cultured veggies and didn't do what I said I was going to...instead, I sliced, julienned, and shredded three red/white beets, sliced and shredded a large ginger root, and added two capsules of Polyflora A along with sea salt. The beets were sweet enough without adding carrots or apples.

I also have a jicama, but I'll wait to make that batch because I want to stagger the finished product.

TJ, if you read this, how do you prepare (slice, shred, etc) your jicama ferment?


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Quoted from passionprincess
I rinse the salt off the cabbage once and add my kimchee spices.
Do you have a recipe?  Do you use napa cabbage or regular?

Quoted from 815
How long does it last in the fridge?
My first batch lasted over a month in the fridge, with no indication that it was going bad when I ate the last bit.  It could get a little mold growing on top but you can skim that off.  Napa cabbage might be ok for you.  It's unlisted on my SWAMI.

Quoted from Drea
TJ, if you read this, how do you prepare (slice, shred, etc) your jicama ferment?
I shredded mine in the food processor.  The batch I made that also had some cabbage in it was actually better than this last one with just jicama and carrot.  I do have to say, cabbage smells very strong when it first starts fermenting!
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TJ

I posted my kimchee recipe somewhere on this site and can't find it.

Here is a copy I sent to a friend of mine:

1 head of Savoy Cabbage
1/4 cup Sea Salt
1 head of garlic
1 small vidalia (sweet onion)
1/4 cup pepper powder
1/4 cup sweet apple cider (can be found at farmer's market; I used unpasteurized, organic cider)
1/4 cup of brown rice starter flour

How to make brown rice starter flour (should be done about 1-2 days in advance; you can use this starter flour to make sourdough, pancakes, etc.):
mix 1 cup of brown rice and 1 cup of kefir whey (you can use plain kefir if you cannot get the whey) and let it sit at room temperature.
Storing this in a mason jar with a coffee filter "lid" (use a rubberband to hold the lid in place) is the best;
The mixture NEEDS to BREATHE!
"feed" the mixture by adding 2-3 tablespoons of brown rice flour ever 8 hours
The mixture should start bubbling.

Once the mixture starts bubbling, it is ready for use. You can continue to age (ferment) the mixture after you have used a portion for the kimchee. The mixture will continue to grow. If you do not want the mixture to grow, keep the mixture in the refrigerator.

Prepare the Cabbage:
Cut and wash the cabbage, leave a bit of water in the bowl and salt the cabbage
Let the cabbage sit for at least an hour and move the cabbage around so all parts are exposed to the salt and water mixture (brine).

Let the cabbage brine mix sit for a few hours. I just let mine sit overnight.

Prepare the kimchee sauce:
Take the brown rice starter, sweet apple cider, onion, garlic, and pepper powder and blend in the food processor; puree or liquify the entire mixture. Make sure the garlic and onion are pretty much liquid. (Koreans do not puree the mixture and use chopped garlic and onions but I prefer to make a liquid sauce since it is easier to mix; I do not like fresh ginger so I intentionally left it out).

Mix the "sauce" into the cabbage and put into a kimchee jar. Although the kimchee can be eaten fresh, the flavors become more complex as it ages. Also, the probiotic content increases with the fermentation process.

**I keep a jar of starter flour so I don't have to make one.**


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Korean White Kimchee - Does not use pepper paste

**This kimchee broth in this recipe creates a kvass like clear, slightly salty, tangy kvass like base. Koreans will often make rice noodles and pour the kimchee plus broth over the noodle for a refreshing summer dish, usually with barbeque since the crisp broth will tone the greasiness of the meat. Also, I have seen people drink the kimchee broth as a hangover drink. **

from Korea Times by Kim, Yong Ja

White Cabbage with Garlic and Ginger

This is a rare non-spicy kimchi. It should be served cold to enjoy its refreshing flavor.

INGREDIENTS (serves 4)

1 CHINESE CABBAGE (2¾ lbs/1.25 kg)

SEA SALT or KOSHER SALT

2 GARLIC CLOVES, crushed fine

1"/2.5 cm GINGER, cut into fine strips

3 SCALLIONS, cut diagonally

1 heaping tablespoon PINE NUTS optional

small amount SILGOCHU (chili thread) used mainly for decoration, has very little flavor

1 cup WATER

⅓ teaspoon SALT to add at the end on top

1. Trim the cabbage and wash outer leaves. Slice the middle of the bottom about 4"/10 cm deep. Put your thumbs in the slit and pull it apart to divide it into two. Then divide each half into two parts.

2. Sprinkle 1 tablespoon salt over the stem area. Soak all cabbage leaves in salted water (1 tablespoon kosher salt for 1 cup water ratio) for about 4-5 hours. Salt has many different strengths, use your own judgment as to the amount of salt to use in wilting the cabbage. When the leaves are wilted, press gently to squeeze out the excess water.

3. While the cabbage is wilting, prepare garlic, ginger and scallion and mix together.

4. Cut off the two large pieces of the cabbage stems and set aside. Sprinkle the scallion mixture, pine nuts and silgochu (chili thread) in between the cabbage leaves.

5. Put them in the jar. Press down to reduce any air pocket. Add a cup of water to the bowl where you mixed the garlic and scallion. Season with 1 tablespoon salt. Pour down the side of the jar to soak ¾ of the kimchi.

6. Cover the top with the large pieces of cabbage that you had set aside. Sprinkle salt on top. Close the jar and leave at room temperature for 1½ days to ripen. Then store in the refrigerator.

7. When serving, set aside the top layer, pull out a cabbage piece and cut into bite sizes. Always put the top layer back before you close the lid.


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Drea
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My turnip kimchee is done! It could stand another day, but is good just as it is, too! That took 2 days, but it's been very hot here.


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Quoted from Drea
You've given me some ideas, Chloe! Did you shred all the veggies or slice some? I like different textures, so I often julienne some, shred some, and slice some in the same batch...

I may add carrot to the first batch of beets, and add apple to the second. I almost always add ginger root because I love it so much!


I shredded the cucumbers, shredded the radishes, smashed the garlic with a mallet and chopped
it...I cut the apple in thin slices and chopped the cilantro. I cut the ginger into little pieces.  Basically
it looks like a big mush in the jar...


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You are awesome, Drea!

You can eat kimchee right after you pour the pepper and sauce. Koreans call that "fresh" kimchee. It is less tangy since it is not as fermented. I prefer my kimchee to be "aged" (or sour, as Koreans call it) because I never liked the taste of raw cabbage - both napa and savoy. I think it comes from my mom making us drink cabbage juice! YUCK! She would juice cabbages without anything else and make us drink it as children. We would run whenever we heard the juicer being turned on in the morning.

I am tempted to use jicama to make the white kimchee without pepper powder.

Quoted from Drea
My turnip kimchee is done! It could stand another day, but is good just as it is, too! That took 2 days, but it's been very hot here.




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Quoted from 815
eh..I'm not a saurkraut lover.



I am such a sauerkraut lover that I'd gladly call it dessert.



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OMG - so am I! I would just put some in a cereal bowl and eat it like salad. I do the same with kimchee these days b/c of probiotics so I do not make it spicy.

I used to eat sauerkraut with everything!

Quoted from Chloe



I am such a sauerkraut lover that I'd gladly call it dessert.





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I love sauerkraut and really miss it, but I have to say this turnip kimchee is a close second!


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Drea
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Holy Moley! I just looked at my "shopping card" for my swami (I laminated it and keep a copy on my desk), and I just noticed that cabbage is no longer listed as an avoid! So I looked it up on the .pdf version on the desktop and lo and behold...it's a neutral.

Sauerkraut is still listed as an avoid, but I'm thinking that if I ferment my own cabbage, it's still a neutral! I'm doing the happy dance!


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Well, most commercial sauekraut is made from vinegar and is not fermented. Maybe that is why it is an avoid. If you can have fermented foods, then you should try it.


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I've been told after 6 months, the cultures start to die.  So.....

I've had some for a pretty good amount of time in my fridge and they still taste pretty well.  Couple of months.  There's been times though that after 2 months I would toss because it would just get a real acidic flavor and feel.  One that didn't sit right with me.  However, I think some of these cultured foods sit for a long long long time before going bad.  

I was reading a book about snipers in Vietnam and I guess the North Vietnamese would bury their Kimchee or what not in a jar in the ground and leave them there for long periods of time before eating them.  It was a mixture of rice and stuff though, so I don't know what they called it exactly.  And our guys would eat them sometimes if they were real hungry.  One guy said he hated the way they tasted but it gave him a lot of energy.


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Mayflowers
Friday, August 12, 2011, 1:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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What a great thread! Thank you all for all the history and tips!  
I might have been able to keep mine out one more day..maybe next time. I had it on my not dog last night with mustard. It was really good! Much better than the garbage you buy with vinegar. You can feel and taste the love and life force when you make it yourself! My mother used to eat cabbage saukraut out of a can and thought it was good for her..

IDK... TJ, I only have bok choy. Cabbage and saurkraut are an avoid. I hope that doesn't also mean fermenting other vegetables.   I need my SWAMI updated. I got it from Dr. D when he first introduced the program. There's been a lot of foods added since then. Nappa Cabbage isn't listed. Just "Cabbage"  I wonder if that includes Nappa as well? Kinda like my cream question.
Thanks for the expiration range. I'll try to use it up in 2 months.
I like Chloe's recipe but radishes are a black dot.
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Drea
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Mayflowers, I suspect that any root vegetable would ferment nicely; there are so many to choose from! Select some from your beneficial list and experiment! I love turnips in general, and so also love fermented turnips, ginger root, and garlic!


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Mayflowers
Friday, August 12, 2011, 2:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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My Beneficial roots are:
carrots
daikon radish
ginger\
leeks
onion
rutabaga
scallion
skunk cabbage (no way)
and turnips that's it
Neutrals are:
Beets
celeriac
chicory root ?
jicama
parsnips
radicchio  ?
shallotts
taro
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daikon radish, carrots, ginger would make a great combination. Daikon radish is very mild.

I just made beet and ginger. The possibilities are endless! I'm not sure about onion, but I do have experience with green onions/scallions. I prefer the firmer vegetables for culturing. I don't care for soggy, unless it's sauerkraut .


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OK, I just skimmed this thread and realized I never actually posted the beet kvass recipe anywhere on here.

I start with 2 small or 1 medium beet. If it's very fresh, I won't peel it, but if it's older and the edges look icky, I'll peel part of all of it. Then I chop the beets into about half inch cubes.  I put these into a quart jar, and it usually fills up the jar about halfway.

I fill the jar with filtered water and add about a teaspoon of salt. I use kosher salt for ferments. I add a little bit of the last batch of kvass, if available. This is where Sally Fallon suggests adding whey if you don't have an old batch. I suppose the contents of a polyflora capsule would work as well. Then I put the lid on the jar and shake it up to make sure the salt is properly distributed.

I put this on a warm-ish spot on my counter for 2-3 days, gently shaking the jar once a day. Generally, it needs 3 days if I didn't use any starter and 2 days if I did.

I typically transfer most of the kvass into another, smaller jar in my fridge to make pouring easier. Then the half-full jar stays in the fridge until it's low enough that I need to make more. I can re-use the beets for 2 or 3 batches (more if there are more beets in the jar and/or if I leave more liquid in for the next batch.) When I'm not using fresh beets, I fill the jar to the top with filtered water and add salt, then cover and shake. I've made more when I still had half a jar of kvass left, and that batch only took a day- but usually I use up more of the kvass before starting a new batch.


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Mayflowers
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Thanks. One thing I noticed is that the cultured veggies really assist my digestion..very much. I think I'll keep making them! Next time I used polyflora and see how that works.
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Just for the record - kimchee is a strictly Korean dish. Pretty much all cultures have their own version of fermented foods but if you use the term kimchee in front of a Korean while referring to fermented veggies from a different country, they will get very upset! I do not know the term for Vietnamese fermented veggies.

Koreans used clay pots that they bury in the ground in their kimchee making for centuries. So the Vietnamese probably did the same although their weather is more tropical than Korea. I have seen the American version of a fermenting pot, too... so I am assuming most cultures have some form of it.

There is a specialty kimchee called super-aged kimchee which I believe is over a year old. I have never tasted it but people describe it as being a super sour pickle, almost. They say it is very high in nutrients. I am not sure about the probiotics since the probiotics need to be fed and if everything is digested by the healthy creatures, they might end up dying after a while...


Quoted from JJR
I've been told after 6 months, the cultures start to die.  So.....

I've had some for a pretty good amount of time in my fridge and they still taste pretty well.  Couple of months.  There's been times though that after 2 months I would toss because it would just get a real acidic flavor and feel.  One that didn't sit right with me.  However, I think some of these cultured foods sit for a long long long time before going bad.  

I was reading a book about snipers in Vietnam and I guess the North Vietnamese would bury their Kimchee or what not in a jar in the ground and leave them there for long periods of time before eating them.  It was a mixture of rice and stuff though, so I don't know what they called it exactly.  And our guys would eat them sometimes if they were real hungry.  One guy said he hated the way they tasted but it gave him a lot of energy.




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Napas are closer to bok choy than cabbage in their appearance. I will post more once I get more info.

Quoted from 815
What a great thread! Thank you all for all the history and tips!  
I might have been able to keep mine out one more day..maybe next time. I had it on my not dog last night with mustard. It was really good! Much better than the garbage you buy with vinegar. You can feel and taste the love and life force when you make it yourself! My mother used to eat cabbage saukraut out of a can and thought it was good for her..

IDK... TJ, I only have bok choy. Cabbage and saurkraut are an avoid. I hope that doesn't also mean fermenting other vegetables.   I need my SWAMI updated. I got it from Dr. D when he first introduced the program. There's been a lot of foods added since then. Nappa Cabbage isn't listed. Just "Cabbage"  I wonder if that includes Nappa as well? Kinda like my cream question.
Thanks for the expiration range. I'll try to use it up in 2 months.
I like Chloe's recipe but radishes are a black dot.




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I need a clarification:
Quoted from passionprincess
1 head of Savoy Cabbage
1/4 cup Sea Salt
1 head of garlic
1 small vidalia (sweet onion)
1/4 cup pepper powder
1/4 cup sweet apple cider (can be found at farmer's market; I used unpasteurized, organic cider)
1/4 cup of brown rice starter flour
What do you mean by "pepper powder"?  A 1/4 cup ground cayenne pepper would make this inedible, so I assume you mean something else....

Also, you mentioned leaving out the ginger.  How much ginger is called for if I want to use it?

Quoted from Drea
Mayflowers, I suspect that any root vegetable would ferment nicely; there are so many to choose from! Select some from your beneficial list and experiment! I love turnips in general, and so also love fermented turnips, ginger root, and garlic!
I don't think turnips or rutabagas could get much worse, so maybe I should try fermenting them.
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The pepper powder is Korean pepper powder. I should have pointed that out. It is not as spicy and has a slightly sweet taste. Make sure you buy it from a Korean market and that it is imported from Korea and not China. The Chinese have been known to use chemicals and pass off non-food materials as food.

In a kimchee blog, the person wrote 1 knob ginger for 1 gallon. My recipe makes 1/2 gallon. I am thinking about 2 inches of ginger root. I avoided left it out b/c too much can make the kimchee bitter and spicy and I had a horrible experience with biting into a piece of ginger as a child.

I think fermented turnips and rutabaga would be awesome! Fermented daikon radish kimchee is one of my favorite kimchee. So I think the root veggies would be great!

Quoted from TJ
I need a clarification:
What do you mean by "pepper powder"?  A 1/4 cup ground cayenne pepper would make this inedible, so I assume you mean something else....

Also, you mentioned leaving out the ginger.  How much ginger is called for if I want to use it?

I don't think turnips or rutabagas could get much worse, so maybe I should try fermenting them.




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passionprincess
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My big issue is finding a gallon sized glass container to make some cultured veggies before school starts. I called local restaurants only to be told they use plastic jars. Yuck.

I go my half gallon container from sotre bought kimchee which had MSG and cost almost double or triple what it cost me to make the same. So I guess I paid for the container.


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Thanks!! I just need two at most but might just order four from them. Thanks!!!

Quoted from ABJoe




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honeybee
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Great idea about using the polyflora in fermented veg!
I have some carrots, garlic, beets, cabbage and ginger hanging around, all in season here atm, must try the ferment again, last week I made a bowl of shredded carrot and ginger that I could not wait 3 days or so to eat, so I ate it raw and unfermented on an empty stomach for lunch, and it gave me super nausea   The natural sugar in carrots maybe??
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Mayflowers
Saturday, August 13, 2011, 1:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I'm just amazed at how my digestion is so good when I add the broccolikraut to my food!  
Honeybee, I got carrot/ginger soup at the HFS and I broke out in hives. Maybe it's something to do with the combo?  
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Raw ginger is strong stuff.  Heck, even cooked or fermented ginger is potent!
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I love ginger.  


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You can have all of mine! The only time I used ginger recently except for the crystallized stuff in my water kefir was when I made sweet potato, nuts, and apple mush in the slow cooker. I used very little but I could still smell and taste it.

My gingerless kimchee is good. You won't miss the ginger. :d

Quoted from JJR
I love ginger.  




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I don't know where I stand with ginger.  It's good for me, so that's a plus.  But it's also a very strange taste that I haven't figured out how to make use of in my cooking.
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My weird mixture of cucumbers, radishes, apples, ginger, garlic, cilantro came out delicious!  It
was just a little over 2 days fermenting and although I'm leaving the jars out for one more, I was able to eat some of it for lunch mixed into sardines... Normally ginger gives me reflux and garlic makes me burp....but once fermented, all of the ingredients sat well in my gut.

It's amazing that you can culture almost anything....Oh, BTW, I added a Polyflora A to this batch.
i like personalizing the bacteria I'm eating.


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Drea
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I bought a bunch of cilantro, thinking I was going to make a jicama salad, but then the Internet went down and I couldn't look up the recipe. Instead, I made three more batches of fermented veggies:

  • red beets and ginger
  • jicama and ginger
  • jicama and carrots


All three are doing fine, though I have to say, my favorite is still turnips, ginger, and garlic!

I'm also going to try some brocolli slaw-kraut, on Mayflowers' recommendation!


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passionprincess
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I swear... you and your love for ginger and garlic! Koreans would love you for that. I always found the scent and taste too strong so I avoided certain Korean foods or washed my kimchee in water as a child. Even today, my kimchee is considered very mild. I run my garlic through the food processor and puree it so I would not get chunks in my kimchee.

Quoted from Drea
I bought a bunch of cilantro, thinking I was going to make a jicama salad, but then the Internet went down and I couldn't look up the recipe. Instead, I made three more batches of fermented veggies:

  • red beets and ginger
  • jicama and ginger
  • jicama and carrots


All three are doing fine, though I have to say, my favorite is still turnips, ginger, and garlic!

I'm also going to try some brocolli slaw-kraut, on Mayflowers' recommendation!




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Ginger is God's gift to man.  Well, at least to me.  It really helps my stomach.  Ginger to, but it's different.  But yes, I've eaten garlic raw too.  I prefer ginger raw though.


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honeybee
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Yeah I don't usually have a prob with ginger, at all. In fact it is my go-to when I am nauseous. However when I threw up for a few hours at sea on a boat - even ginger didn't help
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Sometimes, if you wait until you are already nauseous, it takes longer to kick in (the ginger, that is). I used to suck on raw ginger root whenever I went sailing, whether I felt sick or not, just to be sure.


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Quoted from Drea
I just made another batch of cultured veggies and didn't do what I said I was going to...instead, I sliced, julienned, and shredded three red/white beets, sliced and shredded a large ginger root, and added two capsules of Polyflora A along with sea salt.


So I just tasted the beets and they are very close to tasting like canned sauerkraut! The jicama isn't near as far along in the fermented process, and the only difference besides the vegetables used, is the polyflora A. Hmmm.



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Polyflora has bacteria that will encourage fermentation. I use a bit of milk kefir+rice flour (instead of water and rice flour) to give it a boost. However, keep in mind that your fermentation will take place quicker because of the additional bacteria.

As long as you know how to control it, you will be fine.


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Quoted from Drea


So I just tasted the beets and they are very close to tasting like canned sauerkraut! The jicama isn't near as far along in the fermented process, and the only difference besides the vegetables used, is the polyflora A. Hmmm.



Do you think the Polyflora A caused the fermintation to not be balanced?
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Drea
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It was balanced (and tasted great, btw), it just took a lot less time than the jars I made without it. Also, I used two polyflora A capsules for the one jar of beets/ginger, so next time I'll use only one. The other thing the polyflora A did was to make the batch bubble over into the bowl I had the jar sitting in, several times per day, which left the top veggies unprotected. They weren't moldy, but weren't the nice red color the submerged veggies are (more brown, though they tasted okay).

I know folks say this all the time, but the only way to really find out how something is going to work in your own environment is to experiment! I'm like you Mayflowers, I like to gather all the information beforehand, then attempt the project. With the water kefir, and more so the kombucha, I just winged it, and was pleasantly surprised at the awesome outcome!


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Polyflora will make it ferment faster as Drea mentioned. My fear is that the veggies will get too sour and soft to eat.

Cabbage kimchee requires a "rice porridge" which is sweet rice and water mix. That is basically a starter for fermentation. I use milk kefir whey and brown rice flour. So it is similar to adding a Polyflora except brown rice takes a bit longer to ferment.


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Drea
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Quoted from passionprincess
Polyflora will make it ferment faster as Drea mentioned. My fear is that the veggies will get too sour and soft to eat.


passionprincess, yes! That's exactly what happened...the beet/ginger mix is very soft and sour (though I love sour). I prefer my fermented veggies to retain a slight crunch, which is usually why I like to thinly slice versus shred the veggies...but I was experimenting! I'll eat the beet/ginger mix anyway, but know I probably won't make it again with the polyflora A...the jicama, on the other hand, is sliced, but almost too crunchy. I may have to leave that one sitting out longer...


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Basing the jicama on daikon radish, it might take a few days to up to a week. Once radish/root veggies are fermented properly, it is much more delicious than greens! IMHO.

If it gets too tangy, add some eggs and fry it up or throw in some meat or fish.

Your veggies sound soo good! I am brining my "Mexican" mix and will finish it after my nap.

Quoted from Drea


passionprincess, yes! That's exactly what happened...the beet/ginger mix is very soft and sour (though I love sour). I prefer my fermented veggies to retain a slight crunch, which is usually why I like to thinly slice versus shred the veggies...but I was experimenting! I'll eat the beet/ginger mix anyway, but know I probably won't make it again with the polyflora A...the jicama, on the other hand, is sliced, but almost too crunchy. I may have to leave that one sitting out longer...




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Drea
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Daikon radish is more "juicy" than this particular jicama I bought. It was kind of dry and tough, which is why I chose to ferment it, rather than just eat it raw...well, that, and the fact that I couldn't look up the recipe I had planned to use since the Internet went down...


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Quoted Text
I prefer my fermented veggies to retain a slight crunch,
On the "wild fermentation" site there is mention of using grape leaves to keep cucumbers crisp, I wonder if it would work for other veggies.

I was wondering if the good bacteria are killed by heat? I was thinking of trying to make a faux ruben sandwich with fermented veggies and sliced turkey. I used to love rubens


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Drea
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The jicama and ginger ferment was a bust. I picked out the ginger, ate it, then tosses the jicama. I don't think slicing the jicama is the way to go (imo). The jury is still out on the jicama/carrot ferment, and I really, really, like the beet/ginger ferment, which is now in the fridge.


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Chloe
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I let my veggies sit for two days without Polyflora A...and on the 3rd day, add one capsule. I'm
waiting for the bacterial culture to form on its own and then hoping Polyflora's cultures will get combined and grow another day...I'm finding it keeps veggies crisper and so far, they haven't
gone too soft.


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I was so-so about the jicama and carrot, so I got some red cabbage yesterday to add to it, and restarted the ferment.  Drea, I shredded the jicama (and the cabbage).
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I was watching a public TV show yesterday and they were making bread on a historical working farm.  They said the starter for the bread got it's cultures from the air and the humidity.  So, I think for sourdough, that's where they're saying it comes from.  Whether that's completely correct or not, I know not.  But with the veggies, that wouldn't be the case because sourdough you let ferment in the open.  The veggies are sealed tight.  At least that's how I've been taught to do it.  


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What is a tomatillo??  (a bene for me) and does anyone think I can ferment it....or at least combine
it with other ingredients that might taste well with it.




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Tomatillos are small fruits (used as a vegetable) enclosed in a husk. The fruit resembles a small unripe tomato and is usually green or yellow. The yellow color indicates ripeness, but tomatillos are most often used when they are still green. Green tomatillos are firmer and easier to slice. The husk that holds the fruit is paper-like and is light brown. The flesh is slightly acidic with a hint of lemon. Tomatillos belong to the same family as tomatoes.

More info @:
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmatter.gov/month/tomatillo.html

I have no idea whether they would ferment well...  They would probably be mush when fermented, but the flavor may be fine.


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Thanks ABJoe.... I'm thinking I might be able to squish the other veggies I place in the jar and just
put in small chunks of tomatillos in with it..Or just cut them in half.  Given I live in the Northeast, I don't think I've ever seen or tasted one of these things.  I'm on a quest to find an organic tomatillo.  Why this came to mind is the concept of pickled tomatoes.  I think if I don't squish them, they might
hold their shape.


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Drea
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Quoted from TJ
I was so-so about the jicama and carrot, so I got some red cabbage yesterday to add to it, and restarted the ferment.  Drea, I shredded the jicama (and the cabbage).


Yes, I think shredding the jicama would work better, although, I'd just rather eat it fresh .


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I forgot which thread I posted on but sourdough ferments both aerobically and anaerobically so it is needs to "breathe". It gets it bacteria and yeasts from the air.

San Francisco's sourdough starter has its own lactobacilus name: lactobacilus sanfrancisco!

After finding this out, my goal is to make brown rice starter doughs in all locations I visit from now. It is a bit silly but fun.

Quoted from JJR
I was watching a public TV show yesterday and they were making bread on a historical working farm.  They said the starter for the bread got it's cultures from the air and the humidity.  So, I think for sourdough, that's where they're saying it comes from.  Whether that's completely correct or not, I know not.  But with the veggies, that wouldn't be the case because sourdough you let ferment in the open.  The veggies are sealed tight.  At least that's how I've been taught to do it.  




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Jicama and Asian pear have very similar textures. Asian pear is very crisp and delicious in kimchee. It is cut up into french fry sized matchsticks. I thought the jicama would turn out like the pears.


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I'm really enjoying the cultured/fermented beets and ginger, though the texture is not quite right. The beets were shredded, julienned, and sliced, and I can't figure out which I like the best. They are still firm, though, so that's good.


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I like my fermented veg to be as crisp as possible, think I will pass on the polyflora if it makes them real soft.
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Korean daikon radish kimchee gets slightly soft but you still need to bite into them even a month after it's been made. They are about 1/2 in to 3/4 inch cubes so they are bite sized. They pretty much retain their texture after being fermented.

Drea, kimchee/fermenting really has a learning curve. I am experimenting, too. Luckily, my cabbage kimchee turned out perfect each time. It sounds like your ferments are really really scrumptious! So, the texture may be slightly off but no big deal. There is always next time! You are becoming a fermentation queen!!!


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Quoted from honeybee
I like my fermented veg to be as crisp as possible, think I will pass on the polyflora if it makes them real soft.


I used two polyflora's for one quart jar of beets and ginger. The softness was equivalent to canned sauerkraut (don't ask me how I know how that tastes ). If there's a next time, I'm going with just one polyflora, though I like the ferments with just salt.


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Drea
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Quoted from passionprincess
You are becoming a fermentation queen!!!





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What I'm finding amazing is that vegetables that normally would make me burp or give me
lots of bloat or gas are completely and totally digestible when fermented. I'm eating chunks of fermented garlic, onions, ginger and my belly is so happy. If I ate these same foods raw, I'd
be feeling awful.

I've got jars all over the place right now...various combinations of vegetables.  At this point, I'd
give up most cooked vegetables and just live on fermented ones.  From the time I was a child,
my favorite food was always sauerkraut.....although the type I was eating probably did me no good.
My body has always craved the taste of pickles and sauerkraut.

Has anyone ever tried to make their own pickles?  I'm thinking cucumbers, dill, salt, garlic, water....Anything else?


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Quoted from Chloe

Has anyone ever tried to make their own pickles?  I'm thinking cucumbers, dill, salt, garlic, water....Anything else?


I don't see why not.  There are brine pickles available in our natural food stores.



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Mayflowers
Tuesday, August 16, 2011, 2:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chloe
I've got jars all over the place right now...various combinations of vegetables.  At this point, I'd give up most cooked vegetables and just live on fermented ones.


Fermented veggies would be great all the time in the Spring/Summer. Nice and chilled from the fridge!
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My poor red cabbage, jicama, and carrot is about to go down the disposal.  It keeps getting mold on it, and it's just not moving along.  I think it would be best to just start fresh, even if it does mean throwing away all that food!
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Quoted from TJ
My poor red cabbage, jicama, and carrot is about to go down the disposal.  It keeps getting mold on it, and it's just not moving along.  I think it would be best to just start fresh, even if it does mean throwing away all that food!


Were your veggies pushed down way below the liquid line?

I've never had a mold problem on mine and sometimes I've fermented for 4 days.  Was your jar
lid on tight?

I'm also wondering if there was mold on the veggies prior to chopping them....You can always
do a light veggie soak where you add a cap full of Clorox to a sink full of water for 30 minutes, prior to chopping and squishing them with salt.



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I've decided that I just don't like fermented jicama. I love it raw, though! My batch of jicama and carrot is going into the compost. I won't eat it.


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I've never had jicama.  I think I can.  I need to try it.  


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Quoted from Chloe
Were your veggies pushed down way below the liquid line?
That is part of the problem.  They kept floating up out of the liquid.  I think the jicama may have been absorbing some of it, too.  The lid is definitely not tight, and can't be on this jar.  Next time, I'm going to lay a paper towel over the top like I did when I first tried fermenting.
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You can add water to the top if there's not enough liquid...


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If you brine it for a long time, it will not get moldy. You can always weigh down the veggies that float up with a plate or bowl inside your container. I use an inverted plate to push my veggies down because I am using a lidded casserole dish instead of a jar. It is fermenting nicely.

Chloe: On tomatillos - I would give anything to be able to eat that!!! It is an avoid on GTD. I hope to get SWAMIed in the near future but I doubt that I can have tomatillos. It has a slightly smoky flavor when compared to tomatoes. It is what they use to make green salsa (salsa verde) - tomatillo, cilantro, lemon juice, salt, and chile. I used to love tomatoes as a child but when I discovered tomatillo, I left my former lover behind. You have to try it! It is an acquired taste but the salsa is amazing. I used to even use that stuff as pasta sauce!


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Quoted from passionprincess


Chloe: On tomatillos - I would give anything to be able to eat that!!! It is an avoid on GTD. I hope to get SWAMIed in the near future but I doubt that I can have tomatillos. It has a slightly smoky flavor when compared to tomatoes. It is what they use to make green salsa (salsa verde) - tomatillo, cilantro, lemon juice, salt, and chile. I used to love tomatoes as a child but when I discovered tomatillo, I left my former lover behind. You have to try it! It is an acquired taste but the salsa is amazing. I used to even use that stuff as pasta sauce!


Thanks PP for the tomatillo info....Can eat everything on that list for making salsa verde except
chiles.  What on earth could I sub?



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By the way, I made my cucumber, cauliflower, celery, and carrot fermentation. I just threw in some thyme, oregano, rosemary, and bay leaves into kefir whey and unpasteurized sweet apple cider.

I brined the veggies for a good 18-24 hours because I was purging from the cleanse and did not have the energy to mix the veggies. I was also strapped for space so I had to split the veggies into two containers.

Well, the cucumbers taste like dill pickles, almost because they are fermented. All the veggies in this mix are crisp but have a tangy fermented flavor to them.


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Maybe use a tiny bit of horseradish or some other spicy spice?

Quoted from Chloe


Thanks PP for the tomatillo info....Can eat everything on that list for making salsa verde except
chiles.  What on earth could I sub?





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Quoted from TJ
That is part of the problem.  They kept floating up out of the liquid.  I think the jicama may have been absorbing some of it, too.  The lid is definitely not tight, and can't be on this jar.  Next time, I'm going to lay a paper towel over the top like I did when I first tried fermenting.


When you closed the jar lid, was there about an inch of liquid on top of the veggies?
Because if there is too much liquid when you start and not enough solids, without a tight lid, I'm
thinking the fermentation process which can be quite bubbly, it might have forced your solids
to propel upwards.  I've never had this happen because I keep forcing the veggies to become
tightly packed into my jar....and about an inch liquid goes all the way to the top of the rim...and then I tightly screw on the lid.  Nothing moves around at all.





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Quoted from passionprincess
Maybe use a tiny bit of horseradish or some other spicy spice?





Horseradish...great idea....and I too made a fermentation mixture using very fresh crunch kirby cucumbers which came out tasting really awesome.  Adding garlic and ginger made me eat nearly 1/2 a jar in one sitting.


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I put a small saucer in the jar on top of the veggies, and that helped somewhat, but not enough.  Guess I need to put a big rock on the saucer.  I used a potato masher to squash down the veggies and push out the bubbles as they formed, but it just wasn't enough.
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Horseradish scares me because it is so spicy, though. So use with caution.

I also threw in onions into my veggie mix. I like fermented cucumbers better because it is not as soft and mushy like pickles where they often boil the cucumbers before pickling!

Quoted from Chloe


Horseradish...great idea....and I too made a fermentation mixture using very fresh crunch kirby cucumbers which came out tasting really awesome.  Adding garlic and ginger made me eat nearly 1/2 a jar in one sitting.




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I've decided not to toss the carrot/jicama fermented veggies, but just eat them. I've figured out why I don't like the taste...it tastes like old ice cubes. But the veggies are crunchy and sour, and I know they are good for me. I just won't make that combo again.


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Quoted from TJ
I put a small saucer in the jar on top of the veggies, and that helped somewhat, but not enough.  Guess I need to put a big rock on the saucer.  I used a potato masher to squash down the veggies and push out the bubbles as they formed, but it just wasn't enough.


How large is this container you're using to ferment your veggies?  It's glass or ceramic, right?

My best results come from using quart or pint sized jars.  You used a potato masher to initially
get your veggies to release their liquid?  I get great results by squishing them for about 5
minutes with my hands.


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Quoted from passionprincess
Horseradish scares me because it is so spicy, though. So use with caution.

I also threw in onions into my veggie mix. I like fermented cucumbers better because it is not as soft and mushy like pickles where they often boil the cucumbers before pickling!





Are you talking about raw horseradish or prepared?  I eat horseradish of the jar all the time...
The raw stuff I've grated into sauces, salad dressing...I won't use too much.  But even when
I used a whole bunch of radishes in my last batch of fermented veggies, the final result was
that the radishes mellowed to where I couldn't taste the spicy flavor.

Now if you're talking about something spicy like wasabi....now that's a scary strong flavor if
you ingest too much at once...Instant tears....loss of breath...gasping for air....



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Both. Wasabi and the pickled stuff in the jar for relish. My tolerance for spicy stuff is not that high. I would wash Korean kimchee and have mild salsa.

The fermentation will get rid of the spicy flavor but things that are too spicy scare me. I have never dared to get near the raw stuff. Maybe if I am feeling a bit adventurous and brave...

Quoted from Chloe


Are you talking about raw horseradish or prepared?  I eat horseradish of the jar all the time...
The raw stuff I've grated into sauces, salad dressing...I won't use too much.  But even when
I used a whole bunch of radishes in my last batch of fermented veggies, the final result was
that the radishes mellowed to where I couldn't taste the spicy flavor.

Now if you're talking about something spicy like wasabi....now that's a scary strong flavor if
you ingest too much at once...Instant tears....loss of breath...gasping for air....





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I think I know the problem now.  The jicama/carrot was already fermented, and I added fresh cabbage.  I took all the fermented stuff out of the jar and mixed it in a bowl with the cabbage, and exposed it all to the air.  Maybe the breakdown from the prior lactofermentation made it easier for the yeast to grow?

Quoted from Chloe
How large is this container you're using to ferment your veggies?  It's glass or ceramic, right?

My best results come from using quart or pint sized jars.  You used a potato masher to initially get your veggies to release their liquid?  I get great results by squishing them for about 5 minutes with my hands.
I'm primarily using a glass jar that's about 1 gallon.  I also have a 1/2 gallon glass jar.  I use the potato masher to squeeze out juices and to pack the veggies into the jar.  I seems to work well.  I've been doing that from the start.

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I just finished starting two more batches.  I mixed cabbage, carrot, and broccoli in the big jar, and the rest of the red cabbage with 1/2 tsp of garlic powder in the small jar.
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Did you brine the cabbage? If not, that could the problem.

When you brine your veggies long enough, you can smell the lacto-fermentation before you even mix in the spices. Like I wrote in a couple posts before this, I left my veggies (forgot to mention the onions!) in brine for 24 hours or so. It smelled salty but also a bit fermented. I rinsed it once to get the saltiness out and mixed in the spices, kefir whey, and sweet apple cider. You cannot even taste the whey and apple cider now. It is not fully fermented and balanced but it is getting there. The ones that were soaked in the liquid are fermented. The ones that were on top and did not get as much liquid are a bit salty but fermenting. I just did not have enough space so I had to use two containers but ended up squishing everything! I have my cast iron frying pan sitting on top of my casserole dish with a saucer pushing the veggies down right now. Everything is submerged... as best as it can be.

Quoted from TJ
I think I know the problem now.  The jicama/carrot was already fermented, and I added fresh cabbage.  I took all the fermented stuff out of the jar and mixed it in a bowl with the cabbage, and exposed it all to the air.  Maybe the breakdown from the prior lactofermentation made it easier for the yeast to grow?

I'm primarily using a glass jar that's about 1 gallon.  I also have a 1/2 gallon glass jar.  I use the potato masher to squeeze out juices and to pack the veggies into the jar.  I seems to work well.  I've been doing that from the start.





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I mix salt in and leave it while it's fermenting.  Is that what you mean?
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Nope. By brining, I mean preparing your veggies before you spice it.

It is a technique used in kimchee making. You cut up your cabbage into bite sized pieces and rinse it a few times in water. You can rinse it before you cut the cabbage but since you are rinsing it after you cut, no need to repeat it. Rinsing the smaller pieces is much easier.

After you rinse the cabbage, it will be wet. Salt it. You can add a tiny bit of water if you are using coarse sea salt. My salt crystals are quite big so I use a bit of water. Let the cabbage sit in the salt solution (brine) for at least 1.5 hours. You can move the cabbage around so it soaks up the brine evenly.

You can rinse the brine off the cabbage once depending on how salty your solution is.

Then, you mix in your spices, etc.

I let mine sit in brine for 24 hours or so. You can totally smell the fermentation by then. You can taste it, too.

This way, you do not have to mash up your veggies!

Quoted from TJ
I mix salt in and leave it while it's fermenting.  Is that what you mean?




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Now that cabbage is neutral, I'm making a batch of sauerkraut. I just finished packing it in the jars. If I had more space (I'm also fermenting kombucha tea and water kefir), I'd make the fermented turnip recipe that I love so much. Maybe tomorrow.


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I remembered that I had those locking (air-tight) jars in storage, and knew exactly which box they were in, so I'm using those for my pickles, sauerkraut, and fermented turnip/ginger/carrot/garlic mix that I ended up making yesterday. The sauerkraut needs to be "burped" more often, and when I do, the jar spits at me, and I'm wondering if the seals need to be replaced (they are all old and cracked).


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This thread is so great!!

I've been inspired by you all.  So yesterday, I finely chopped some red cabbage, grated some ginger, chopped some garlic, grated some carrot, and finely chopped one birds eye chili, salted with about a tablespoon of pink Himalayan rock salt, mashed it up until the liquids started coming out (a lot) and bottled it up.  It's sitting on my counter now brewing - I hope it works out, this is the first time I've done it.  I'm excited though.

I was worried that there wasn't enough liquid, so I opened it this afternoon to push it all down a bit.  Anyway, it 'burped' at me - hurrah, I reckon it's working .

So you guys swear by this whole fermented veg thing right?  What benefits should I hope for once I start introducing some into my daily diet?

Thanks again everyone!!

Andy


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The obvious benefit I see is increased regularity- I get some issues with gassiness/constipation when I neglect my cultured veggies a few days in a row. I'm sure it helps with overall immunity as well,  but the GI reactions are the only once I really notice.


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Found out today that the seals on the locking jars are working just fine . I have to open the jars in the sink, unless I want "juice" all over .


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I don't use tight-fitting lids, and that seems to work fine for me.
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To keep veggies down in the liquid, I add half lemons or a few cabbage leaves to the top of the jar.  This last layer can stay out of the liquid OK, since I do not get to eat it.  What stays underneath, in the brine is what goes into our plates ... I also massage my veggies well to get their juices flowing ... is the best part of making fermented veggies ... This way, I hardly use any water, if at all ...I did not read the whole thread, but you are all very inspiring and doing great!




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I ate a sour pickle today...could be sour-er, but it was gooooood! Perhaps I won't have to wait 4 weeks after all!


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I make mine the same way. The only water my veggies get is when I wash them. I leave a bit of water so it can mix with the salt and form the brine. If the brine is too salty, then I rinse the veggies before I use other spices.

I found that brining the veggies (which is how kimchee is made) eliminates the need to crush the veggies. I use a plate, saucer, or bowl to keep the veggies in brine.

I am brining celery and onions today. I will let it sit while I sleep and then massage/move the veggies around in the bowl after I get up so the brine is distributed. After that... maybe thrown in some oregano, thyme, and rosemary? It is so simple.

My biggest problem is coming up with jars! I have posted on freecycle for help.

Quoted from Cristina
To keep veggies down in the liquid, I add half lemons or a few cabbage leaves to the top of the jar.  This last layer can stay out of the liquid OK, since I do not get to eat it.  What stays underneath, in the brine is what goes into our plates ... I also massage my veggies well to get their juices flowing ... is the best part of making fermented veggies ... This way, I hardly use any water, if at all ...I did not read the whole thread, but you are all very inspiring and doing great!




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Cristina
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I have just made one with the 3 sound like k: cabbage, Kale and carrots ... pack them dry to the bottom of the jar (about 3 thirds up the jar), then added the brine that resulted from the massage ... filled the jar with it!  I mixed in the following the herbs from my garden: fennel leaves, celery herb, coriander ...  Run out of ginger, but it is pouring here, no game to dig some out ... May add that tomorrow ...




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Drea
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I've been "eyeing" a fermenting/culturing crock (and they are pricey!). I like the idea of making a larger batch at one time, which takes up less space than having individual jars over all the usable surfaces...

Does anyone here use a culturing crock like this: TSM Crock?

Currently, I'm using locking glass canning jars of various sizes. I have other jars, but no plates that will fit inside...


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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passionprincess
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Have you checked freecycle or craigslist? Someone in my area has 2 gallon and 6 gallon crocks. They are too heavy for my 2nd story apartment so I all I could do is drool at the ad. They were selling it for less than 10 bucks. It is more for the backyard, though. I am assuming you can use those since you have the space.

Koreans use kimchee/fermentation crocks that sit outdoors because of nature's temperature. I am a bit envious of people who can fully utilize natural resources like that.

Quoted from Drea
I've been "eyeing" a fermenting/culturing crock (and they are pricey!). I like the idea of making a larger batch at one time, which takes up less space than having individual jars over all the usable surfaces...

Does anyone here use a culturing crock like this: TSM Crock?

Currently, I'm using locking glass canning jars of various sizes. I have other jars, but no plates that will fit inside...




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ruthiegirl
Monday, August 22, 2011, 2:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I save the  glass jars that food comes in, and I've been doing that  for years, so I have quite a collection now. My favorites are the ones from almond butter at Costco,but I also have a few different sizes from Bubbie's pickles (for DS)or kraut (before I found out I was a nonnie), gefilte fish, tomato sauce, jarred peaches, etc. I use these for food storage (leftovers) as well as for homemade rice  or almond milk and various ferments.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Drea
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I save glass jars, too; I'm just wanting something large enough to make more than a quart of ferment at one time...


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I made a really crazy combo saturday afternoon;
Spring cabbage, caarots, onion and a little chili
all from garden.
Added some seasalt and whey from drained creme fraise( our stuff is only cream and bacteria)  as well as a litle water
Tonight when I moved the glass it was really bubly ( normally I would leave it out for 3 days)
- but also quite nice- not as salty as I remembered- but maybe a little to strong from chili
- however I think it will be nice with bland meat like turkey breast.


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
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Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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Drea
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I just found this Pickle, Sauerkraut, and KimChi maker and ordered one!


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Mayflowers
Monday, August 22, 2011, 6:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Drea
I ate a sour pickle today...could be sour-er, but it was gooooood! Perhaps I won't have to wait 4 weeks after all!


I have pickle in brine as a black dot.    I really like the broccolikraut on my not dog. So tasty!   I didn't eat much last week because I was on vacation (we ate out a lot) but this week I will.  I wish Dr. D would put up some information on fermenting vegetables and blood type.    
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Drea
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What I don't understand is if cucumbers are diamonds, and brine is just salt and water, then why the black dot for "pickles, in brine"? I'm eating them anyway.


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Munchkin76
Monday, August 22, 2011, 9:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My cabbage concoction is looking good and it 'burps' every time I let the pressure down a bit.  Tomorrow is day 3 so I'm thinking I'll taste it and put it in the fridge - how should it taste when it's 'done'?  Also, some of the water level seems to have disappeared - is this normal and should I top it up?  I think the cabbage must just be reabsorbing some??

Thanks again everyone, this thread is awesome!!  Ruthie, thanks for the heads up on the benefits - I'm looking forward to even better GI health soon!!

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

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Drea
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My cabbage is absorbing the liquid, too. I've just been topping it off with brine. It's done when it's at the sour taste you love.  


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passionprincess
Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 1:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I only have one 1/2 gallon container when I bought commercial kimchee (it was loaded with msg, yuck!). I do not buy prepared foods, if I can help it. I did have some smaller pasta sauce jars but that was before my GTD days. I lived in graduate housing (dorms) so had to throw out the jars when I moved out. Also, since I only cooked for myself, I would buy the smaller jars.

I am using a lidded glass casserole dish to make my veggie ferments and kimchee jars for my kimchee. Other than that, only small 1 quart mason jars for kefir and company. I am hoping someone on freecycle or craigslist will help me out.

Quoted from ruthiegirl
I save the  glass jars that food comes in, and I've been doing that  for years, so I have quite a collection now. My favorites are the ones from almond butter at Costco,but I also have a few different sizes from Bubbie's pickles (for DS)or kraut (before I found out I was a nonnie), gefilte fish, tomato sauce, jarred peaches, etc. I use these for food storage (leftovers) as well as for homemade rice  or almond milk and various ferments.




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Drea
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I ate some of my sauerkraut tonight, and it's interesting. The flavor tastes like I put dijon mustard in it when I didn't. I don't think I shredded the cabbage fine enough, and the cabbage is kind of dry. Cabbage is only neutral, so I may not make it again soon. I much prefer the turnip/ginger/carrot/green onion ferment anyway.

The last batch of turnip, et al, was finely shredded instead of sliced, like I normally do it. The flavor was identical, but it fermented much faster.


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I got jars!!!! Someone on freecyle saw my ad. He owns an Italian place at the local farmer's market. I went and picked them up after class today.

8 glass one gallon jars!!! Woo hoo! 7 have metal lids with a bit of rust but I am going to buy plastic lids, no biggie.

**Doing the "I got jars" dance!!!** I am so excited that I can start fermenting in larger volumes without worrying about containers. Yippeeeee!


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Quoted from Drea
My cabbage is absorbing the liquid, too. I've just been topping it off with brine. It's done when it's at the sour taste you love.  


Thanks Drea, as soon as I put the post on here I decided to do just that.

I've topped it up again just now - it's still burping every time I open it!  I reckon tomorrow night, it'll be ready - I made it on Saturday morning so....

Thanks everyone again!

Andy


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Drea
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 1:22am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just made another batch of cultured veggies, this time using the food processor. I thought I was using the grate disc, but it turned out to be the julienne disc. Ginger, garlic, carrots, turnips, korean pepper powder, and sea salt. Lots of juice, didn't have to add any water.


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passionprincess
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 1:36am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Wow, Drea! You are rocking it!

I miscounted my free glass jars - he actually gave me 10. I can get into this fermentation competition now... So, slow down lady! I have to catch up to you.

It is a shame we are not near each other. It would be fun to have a tasting session of all the wonderful BTD/GTD/SWAMI fermentation creativity that goes on here!

Quoted from Drea
I just made another batch of cultured veggies, this time using the food processor. I thought I was using the grate disc, but it turned out to be the julienne disc. Ginger, garlic, carrots, turnips, korean pepper powder, and sea salt. Lots of juice, didn't have to add any water.




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Drea
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I have a case of quart-size wide mouth canning jars, two half-gallon glass jars, and two gallon glass jars that have a super wide mouth (not specifically for canning, though) and are for the liquid ferments only. I also have numerous (most are in storage) air-tight locking glass jars...

I also have a gallon jar coming in the mail that has the fancy (though plastic) top for fermenting veggies.

I'll probably add in another two gallon jars for liquid ferments, and save the quart-size jars for other things...

It's amazing because my kitchen is teeny tiny, and yet, I'm still a fermenting fool!


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passionprincess
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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No, no! You are NOT a fool!

You are the fermenting queen! You are an expert who can give us really good advice.

I prefer plastic lids over the metal lids with liners and other stuff. The metal lids with the plastic in it has BPA while most plastic lids do not.

I just got gallon jars that had Italian style olives and pickles and such. It is gunky with dried olive oil and veggies bits. I have a ton of washing to do. The guy left it out in a crate and it got rained on. The metal lids have rust. I am trying to buy plastic lids online.

Quoted from Drea
I have a case of quart-size wide mouth canning jars, two half-gallon glass jars, and two gallon glass jars that have a super wide mouth (not specifically for canning, though) and are for the liquid ferments only. I also have numerous (most are in storage) air-tight locking glass jars...

I also have a gallon jar coming in the mail that has the fancy (though plastic) top for fermenting veggies.

I'll probably add in another two gallon jars for liquid ferments, and save the quart-size jars for other things...

It's amazing because my kitchen is teeny tiny, and yet, I'm still a fermenting fool!




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ruthiegirl
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Do all your ferments need tight-fitting lids? Or can you cover some of them with a circle of fabric held in place with a rubber band?


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Drea
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My liquid ferments need to "breathe", so a cloth with a rubber band is sufficient, at least for the first ferment. The second ferment needs tight fitting lids.

My veggie ferments do better (less mold, etc) with tight fitting lids, especially since I've not perfected the plate/boiled rock lid sitch.


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passionprincess
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I just ferment everything the way I saw my mom make kimchee. She would let the veggies sit in brine for hours or overnight so the lacto-fermentation already starts. The spices would be mixed into the veggies and then locked up in a glass jar or fermentation crock with a lid.

I never crush my veggies, either. Everything sits in a saltwater bath and then goes into a container with a lid. I had no problems with any of my fermentation. The carrots, onion, and celery are super crisp while being fermented instead of being soft and limp.

Quoted from ruthiegirl
Do all your ferments need tight-fitting lids? Or can you cover some of them with a circle of fabric held in place with a rubber band?




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Drea
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My veggie ferments are crisp and crunchy, even though I "massage" them with the salt. I don't smash them, just massage them (there's a difference in my mind ).


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passionprincess
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I massage them and let them sit in their salt bath. I know other recipes suggest smashing the veggies. I think that injures them and kills some of their life force. That is just me. I am trying to let them be as full of life as possible.

Quoted from Drea
My veggie ferments are crisp and crunchy, even though I "massage" them with the salt. I don't smash them, just massage them (there's a difference in my mind ).




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Drea
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I agree, full of life is better than smashed.


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passionprincess
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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...and less labor intensive, too! I like doing things the easy way. I found that massaging it in salt (with just enough water to keep the veggies wet) allows me to do a single and double fermentation at the same time. I am assuming the initial fermentation starts with the salt massage. I can smell the fermentation by the time I am ready to put the spices in.

Quoted from Drea
I agree, full of life is better than smashed.




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Munchkin76
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Oh dear, I squished mine with a potato mashed to get the water out (that's what I was told). Will massage them gently by hand next time.

Thanks y'all!

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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passionprincess
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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It is okay to squish them because you are trying to draw the juices out. Wetting the veggies slightly and salting them actually does the same thing without all the labor.

That is how they make kimchee with cabbage, radishes, etc. I just use the same technique and do a simple one-step fermentation. Perhaps, it IS double since the saltwater massage is the first fermentation and then the spices are the second...

Have fun and welcome to the fermentation club!

Quoted from Munchkin76
Oh dear, I squished mine with a potato mashed to get the water out (that's what I was told). Will massage them gently by hand next time.

Thanks y'all!

Andy  




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Quoted from passionprincess
It is okay to squish them because you are trying to draw the juices out. Wetting the veggies slightly and salting them actually does the same thing without all the labor.

That is how they make kimchee with cabbage, radishes, etc. I just use the same technique and do a simple one-step fermentation. Perhaps, it IS double since the saltwater massage is the first fermentation and then the spices are the second...

Have fun and welcome to the fermentation club!





Thanks PP, glad to be an honorary member!

What's a double fermentation? I just shredded my cabbage, carrots, ginger, garlic and chili. I sprinkled with pink himilayan rock salt as I went (about 1 tablespoon) and then squished it liberally with a potato masher. Stored on my kitchen counter in a large glass jar with a tight lid.

Have been topping up with brine as it gets absorbed to keep the liquid just above the veg. It's been about 4 days now. I'll probably put it in the fridge when I get home from work tonight.

Is there anything else I should be doing?



Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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passionprincess
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 2:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Drea mentions double fermentation on the previous page.

Basically, you have all your veggies and spices in the jar with a breathable lid (coffee filter, cloth, etc.) and then, after it starts fermenting, the veggies are sealed in a container with a tight lid.

It sounds like you did all the right things from what I have read in terms of sauerkraut recipes. Let me know how it turns out.

Quoted from Munchkin76


Thanks PP, glad to be an honorary member!

What's a double fermentation? I just shredded my cabbage, carrots, ginger, garlic and chili. I sprinkled with pink himilayan rock salt as I went (about 1 tablespoon) and then squished it liberally with a potato masher. Stored on my kitchen counter in a large glass jar with a tight lid.

Have been topping up with brine as it gets absorbed to keep the liquid just above the veg. It's been about 4 days now. I'll probably put it in the fridge when I get home from work tonight.

Is there anything else I should be doing?





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Cool, thanks!

Will let you know how it goes!


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Mayflowers
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 3:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Drea
What I don't understand is if cucumbers are diamonds, and brine is just salt and water, then why the black dot for "pickles, in brine"? I'm eating them anyway.


  I like your attitude sista.  Possibly too much salt can affect a Warrior's blood pressure and possibly cause a stroke..? My thoughts on it.

If I get a chance, and he's not too busy, I'll ask Dr. D when I see him on the 17th.  I usally have all these questions then I see him.. and my mind goes blank. A's get flustered by all that's going on..easy.
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ABJoe
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Quoted from 815
I usually have all these questions then I see him.. and my mind goes blank. A's get flustered by all that's going on..easy.

Write them down (and remember to take them with you..).

Seriously, I have to write everything down to make sure I ask or do all I expect to do anymore...  I sure hope these mental disconnects eventually clear up so I can think and remember things again...


RH-, ISTJ
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Mickey
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Have questions for all my fellow fermenters.

I've been on an antibiotic for about a week now.  I forgot i had some beet kvass in the frig. that i made last summer when i thought i was an explorer.  Now beets are a black dot for me.  I opened the jar of beet kvass and it still smells fine and there's no evidence of mold.  First of all do you think it's still safe to drink?.  Would it be ok to have it even though it's a black dot?.  I'm wondering if anything would be better than nothing right now as far as good bacteria.  I don't have the energy to put into making any other fermented veggies right now and i don't have the mula to buy any probiotics.

Thanks!


"Let food be thy medicine"

Dr. D has said many times that it's not about what you don't eat but what you do eat that makes the difference.  "Quoted by Jane"
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Drea
Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 7:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 815

Possibly too much salt can affect a Warrior's blood pressure and possibly cause a stroke..? My thoughts on it.


I've been eating fermented veggies for a while now, and I just had my blood pressure taken...112/58.


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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ruthiegirl
Thursday, August 25, 2011, 8:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Mickey
Have questions for all my fellow fermenters.

I've been on an antibiotic for about a week now.  I forgot i had some beet kvass in the frig. that i made last summer when i thought i was an explorer.  Now beets are a black dot for me.  I opened the jar of beet kvass and it still smells fine and there's no evidence of mold.  First of all do you think it's still safe to drink?.  Would it be ok to have it even though it's a black dot?.  I'm wondering if anything would be better than nothing right now as far as good bacteria.  I don't have the energy to put into making any other fermented veggies right now and i don't have the mula to buy any probiotics.

Thanks!
Beets are a black dot, not an avoid. Beet Kvass specifically is not evaluated- so it might be neutral or even beneficial for you.

If I were you, I'd go ahead and drink the kvass and not worry about it. See if you can find the energy to get some other ferments going in the next few days, with beneficial or at least neutral veggies.



Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Drea
Friday, August 26, 2011, 3:46am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Several days ago I made a batch of pickles in brine. I couldn't figure out how to keep the pickles covered, though, so I experimented with several different-sized locking jars that I have. The one that worked the best is a tall jar, but the pickles kept floating to the top. Then I discovered that I have stemless glasses that are just the perfect size to fit in the top, adding water in the glass to make it heavy, and voila! the pickles are submerged. Now that's using my noggin' .

I just tasted a pickle and boy is it good. I read somewhere that adding grape leaves to pickles keep them crunchy. I'll definitely try that next time.


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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passionprincess
Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I used a saucer with a plastic mason jar lid stacked on top before sealing the celery onion with the lid. It was enough to keep the veggies down.

The celery is crunchy and the onion lost its "oniony bite". The longer it ferments, it does not smell like raw onions nor cause mild heartburn (which was my problem yesterday but not today). I am thinking fermented onions would be a perfect relish for greasy/meaty foods.

They say the tannins in grape leaves keep the pickles crunchy. I am wondering if tea bags can do the same thing except the brine might get a tea like flavor.

Quoted from Drea
Several days ago I made a batch of pickles in brine. I couldn't figure out how to keep the pickles covered, though, so I experimented with several different-sized locking jars that I have. The one that worked the best is a tall jar, but the pickles kept floating to the top. Then I discovered that I have stemless glasses that are just the perfect size to fit in the top, adding water in the glass to make it heavy, and voila! the pickles are submerged. Now that's using my noggin' .

I just tasted a pickle and boy is it good. I read somewhere that adding grape leaves to pickles keep them crunchy. I'll definitely try that next time.




Simplifying my life. Only the best for my body, mind, and soul!

Food: Diamonds > Superfood > Neutrals > Black Dots > Avoids
People: Diamonds > Superfriends > Neutrals > Questionables > Avoids

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Mickey
Friday, August 26, 2011, 3:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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RuthieGirl,

Thanks for the reassurance!.  I feel better now that i can utilize the beet kvass still and get some benefit from it.  


"Let food be thy medicine"

Dr. D has said many times that it's not about what you don't eat but what you do eat that makes the difference.  "Quoted by Jane"
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passionprincess
Saturday, August 27, 2011, 1:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I am finally going to make kimchee this weekend! My starter flour had died when I stuck it in the fridge. Now that I have a new batch, I can go ahead and inoculate the kimchee with it.

My onion fermentation gave me a mini detox. I have more energy than ever before and my chest is clearer than ever, too. I am only eating what I prepared until my paycheck arrives so I had a load of fermented onions, a bit of celery, and brown rice for dinner. It was enough to keep me full and satisfied. I had the same thing yesterday and the day before. The prior days, as noted above - I had mild heartburn (because it was not fully balanced/fermented yet). No heartburn after it became perfectly fermented. It is slightly crunchy (like raw onions), sweet (because it is vidalia sweet onions), not really salty, though since I did not use much salt... Almost reminds me of a oniony sauerkraut.

Anyway, the detox from it is a neat experience. It is not majorly noticeable. I thought I was coming down with a cold b/c of the chest congestion (and my prof. said she was sick and told us not to get too close to her). Well, I had a productive cough for about 10 min. earlier today and whoa.. clear chest!

So, give onions a try!


Simplifying my life. Only the best for my body, mind, and soul!

Food: Diamonds > Superfood > Neutrals > Black Dots > Avoids
People: Diamonds > Superfriends > Neutrals > Questionables > Avoids

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Mayflowers
Saturday, August 27, 2011, 1:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ABJoe

Write them down (and remember to take them with you..


I've done that. I was too embarrassed to whip out a list of questions and start asking..Didn't want to take up his time..   I know. I know.  
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Mayflowers
Saturday, August 27, 2011, 1:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Drea


I've been eating fermented veggies for a while now, and I just had my blood pressure taken...112/58.


Possibly later in life for a Warrior. 60's and up..
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passionprincess
Saturday, August 27, 2011, 1:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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