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Ronagon
Monday, September 3, 2007, 9:09am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Butter is dairy, right? Then why is it safe for O's?

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Lloyd  -  Sunday, October 28, 2007, 3:26pm
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Henriette Bsec
Monday, September 3, 2007, 9:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Very litle lactose - no cassein
- but IF sensitive use ghee
- however nothing beats REAL organic cold butter from happy cows on grass


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ISA-MANUELA
Monday, September 3, 2007, 9:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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isn't it coz of the longchain fatty acids ......very important for gut integrety
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Henriette Bsec
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Kyosha Nim
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could be another reason .....


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italybound
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Quoted from ISA-MANUELA
isn't it coz of the longchain fatty acids ......very important for gut integrety


this would only be for ghee tho right?  



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Ronagon
Monday, September 3, 2007, 1:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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All I know is that butter works for me.
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Kristin
Monday, September 3, 2007, 2:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Henriette_Bsec

- however nothing beats REAL organic cold butter from happy cows on grass





Now I know why B's are so mellow... it's from the dairy!!






The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

- Nelson Henderson
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OSuzanna
Monday, September 3, 2007, 2:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Ronagon
All I know is that butter works for me.


Me too!


OSuzanna
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FOOD for THOUGHT, Super Beneficial 4 All Blood Types!
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mikeo
Monday, September 3, 2007, 2:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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make sure it's organic...non organic has many steroid and antibiotic residues in it


RHN MIfHI
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Henriette Bsec
Monday, September 3, 2007, 2:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kristin





Now I know why B's are so mellow... it's from the dairy!!










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Henriette Bsec
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Quoted from pkarmeier


this would only be for ghee tho right?


Well the butter still have the long chain ... so


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Brighid45
Monday, September 3, 2007, 3:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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I use butter in recipes where ghee is not an acceptable substitute, and ghee for everyday cooking and consumption. Ghee is the best part of butter--the butyric acid--without the milk solids that cause inflammation in sensitive people. That said, butter is yummy! I agree with  Henriette's recommendation of organic butter from grass-fed cows. There's a BIG difference, taste and quality-wise, imo anyway. If you're used to cheapo commercial butter, trying the good stuff is a revelation. You can even make your own, if you have an organic, additive-free source for cream.

If butter doesn't bother you, enjoy.  Os have so few dairy options, taking advantage of one small one is kinda nice sometimes.


Everyone is entitled to his or her informed opinion. --H. Ellison
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ISA-MANUELA
Monday, September 3, 2007, 3:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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sooo it is dear Hettilein ......both do have......lch.f.a's  
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italybound
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, 5:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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posting so new people are not confused..........because I got confused w/ some of the above conversation and I've been around awhile..........didnt catch the 'long chain' thing until just now.
Ghee conains short chain fatty acids ..that is what makes it so good for us.

From Dr D: Ghee contains short chain fatty acids that really help energize the cells that line the colon, and in exchange, they will work better and interact more efficiently with the bacteria in the gut, further enhancing the breakdown of fiber, which in turn makes more short chain fatty acids, which energize the cells of the colon lining, which




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ISA-MANUELA
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, 6:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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....ouch .....ahem...ok for the correcture ....sorry I was persuated that it is the contrary ....ok so we go for the butyrate .....
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italybound
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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from ISA-MANUELA
....ouch .....ahem...ok for the correcture .....





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Lloyd
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, 3:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from pkarmeier
posting so new people are not confused..........because I got confused w/ some of the above conversation and I've been around awhile..........didnt catch the 'long chain' thing until just now.
Ghee conains short chain fatty acids ..that is what makes it so good for us.

From Dr D: Ghee contains short chain fatty acids that really help energize the cells that line the colon, and in exchange, they will work better and interact more efficiently with the bacteria in the gut, further enhancing the breakdown of fiber, which in turn makes more short chain fatty acids, which energize the cells of the colon lining, which




What everybody needs to remember is that the fat profiles of butter and ghee are identical. Identical. The same amount of short and long chain fatty acids. The difference is that the ghee has the water and the milk solids removed. Making ghee does not magically remove cholesterol or long chain fatty acids. They are still there!

EDIT: Those wanting low cholesterol ghee may want to look at Reply #2 on this thread.

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spel Czech.
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Whimsical
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, 11:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Aneja RP, Murthi TN. Beneficial effects of ghee. Nature 1991;350:280.
Milk fats from cow or buffalo milk contained 0.6 and 0.5% CLAs, respectively microbial fermentation during curd formation increases the CLA content of milk fats to 1.0% Heating of milk fats as in ghee making, is known to increase CLA content.  There is a further increase of CLA content (2.5-2.8%) in ghee samples when butter is clarified at higher temperatures (120 degrees C) than at the 110 degrees C (1.1-1.3%) traditionally used in villages to make ghee.



MIFHI E-185
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Quoted from Paraphrased from Sharma H, Clark C. Contemporary Ayurveda. Philadelphia: Churchill Livingstone. 1998.
In the traditional (desi) method, un-homogenized milk is made into yogurt and then churned with water.  The cream rises to the top and is heated until the water is vapourized and the milk solids precipitate out.  This is the preferred method, because it produces almost twice as much conjugated linoleic acid (p.67)



MIFHI E-185
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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Whimsical
There is a further increase of CLA content (2.5-2.8%) in ghee samples when butter is clarified at higher temperatures (120 degrees C) than at the 110 degrees C (1.1-1.3%) traditionally used in villages to make ghee.


So if one is clarifying it in an oven of 350 degrees......the CLA is further increased as well?



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Whimsical
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Kyosha Nim
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Just because the oven is 350 degrees does not mean that whatever you are cooking or baking is...  I'm not sure how hot the ghee would get in that oven, but in that article they also said that heating it to 120 degrees would be impractical at home...  I'll look up the quote when I am at home.


MIFHI E-185
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Lloyd
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, 11:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from wikipedia (bolding mine)
Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) refers to a family of many isomers of linoleic acid (at least 13 are reported), which are found primarily in the meat and dairy products of ruminants. As implied by the name, the double bonds of CLAs are conjugated.

Conjugated linoleic acid is a trans fat, though some researchers claim that it is not harmful in the same fashion as other trans fatty acids, but rather is beneficial.


Quoted from medscape (bolding mine)
The term conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) describes a group of conjugated, octadecadieonic acid isomers of linoleic acid.[1] The two isomers with known biological activity are cis-9,trans-11 linoleic acid and trans-10,cis-12 linoleic acid. Dietary sources of CLA are animal products, such as beef, poultry, eggs, and heat-processed dairy products like cheese, milk, and yogurt.[2] The typical ratio of cis-9,trans-11 to trans-10,cis-12 in foods is about 30:1 to 70:1; CLA supplements usually provide 50:50 ratios of the two isomers. Linoleic acid does not appear to be converted to CLA within the body in significant amounts. Although plant oils are good sources of linoleic acid, they contain only small amounts of CLA. CLA can be synthesized by exposing the linoleic acid in plant oils (sunflower and safflower) to base and heat.[3]


Linoleic acid is, of course, a long chain (polyunsaturated) fatty acid. The conversion to CLA via makes it a trans fat.

Quoted from more from medscape
Adverse Effects
Commonly reported adverse effects of CLA are gastrointestinal, including nausea, diarrhea, dyspepsia, and loose stools.[1-4]

Precautions and Contraindications
CLA is generally well tolerated. However, because of the potential effects of CLA on glucose regulation, patients with diabetes or cardiovascular disease should avoid CLA use.[1-4]

Interactions
CLA may interact with antidiabetic medications because of its effect on glucose metabolism and with hyperlipidemia medications because of its potential effects on lipid levels.[1-4]

Conclusion
Although CLA's benefits on body composition are promising, its negative effects on glucose metabolism and insulin resistance are troubling. Supplemental use of CLA produces minimal reductions, at best, in body weight, despite its favorable effects on BFM and possibly LBM. Use of CLA for weight reduction should be reserved as an adjunct therapy to standard weight reduction interventions and limited to patients requiring mild weight loss and at low risk for diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Patients considering CLA supplementation should discuss the matter with their physician and be monitored for glucose and lipid changes.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/547232_print



Natural CLA seems to be useful. If the trans fats created by heating (ie more CLA) are identical then that could be useful. We know there are differences in molecules (eg handedness) that make a difference. That may or may not apply here, I don't know. For the moment I'm assuming them to be the same. There are some reasons to wonder about too much CLA, possibly blood type dependant.

Whatever minor changes there are in the fat profile thru creation of trans-fats, there is still the essentially same long chain and cholesterol profile as previously stated. If anything there is more saturated fat than before, counting the new trans fats as saturated.

EDIT 9/6: Duh, CLA is not saturated. The change in the bond making it a trans fat does not change that it is polyunsaturated. Writing too fast!

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Lloyd
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A further thought.

Since the CLA is created through heating (like other trans fats that we commonly know of) then anyone frying with butter should get an increase in CLA from their cooking. It would depend on the temperature and time needed among other things. So the CLA effect could possibly be had from butter in some cases. One would think that there would be more notice of increase in trans fats from cooking with butter if this were the case though.

In any case, the CLA increase may be beneficial. At this point it seems to be, there seems to be a lot to learn about it yet. Note the quote in my above response from medscape, which has a number of negative factors.

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Kyosha Nim
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Actually, most trans fats that people are "scared" of are created through hydrogenation of oils (making liquids into solids).  Think margarine - a butter substitute made of "healthier" vegetable oils and made spreadable via hydrogenation (although some margarines are non-hydrogenated).  Doing this adds to the shelf life of packaged products that contain fats, because double bonds are less stable (and therefore go rancid faster) than single bonds.  Another reason to avoid packaged food...

This hydrogenation reaction in itself does not create trans fats, but rather removes the double bonds in unsaturated oils by pumping in hydrogen.  Unfortunately, this reaction can also run backwards and these hydrogenated fats can revert to double bonds.  The difference is that when going in reverse, the double bonds reformed can be trans double bonds  (a more symmetrical orientation in 3D space), rather than cis (less symmetrical, more lopsided).  Thus the name "trans fats".  Cis double bonds are found in nature, trans double bonds are generally not.  However, since CLA is naturally occurring in animal fats and animal products, I guess some of it IS natural.  The same way SOME omega-6 fats are ANTI-inflammatory (contrary to what the general population seems to think)...  But that is for another time...

Oh, and my understanding is that the primary benefit of ghee is due to short-chain fatty acids (particularly butyrate), as discussed earlier.  These short-chain fatty acids "feed" the colon cells, which are very important because in addition to being an integral part of the immune system, they help produce vitamins such as vitamin K and biotin.  Many, many people (Dr. D included) claim that ghee is higher in butyratee than butter, but I haven't gone searching for specific sources.  The only book and journal sources I had on hand were about CLA because last year I wrote a paper about ghee.  


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada

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