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thejuice
Monday, April 16, 2007, 4:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Hello everyone, I am new to this ER4YT thing and was wondering what the professionals think about using goat whey protein powder in a O types diet?

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thejuice  -  Monday, April 16, 2007, 6:55am
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Don
Monday, April 16, 2007, 5:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Welcome thejuice,

Goat whey protein powder would still probably be considered a type O Tier 2 avoid since whey and goats milk are both Tier 2 avoids. You would be better off using egg white and/or rice protein powder.

Have you checked the goat whey protein powder product you are considering for any additional avoids? I checked into one goat whey protein powder product several months ago and found it had other avoids in it.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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thejuice
Monday, April 16, 2007, 7:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thanks for the info Modon... I have ordered some rice protein and some super bovine protein that is made from beef, so we will see how that taste .

I checked the ingredients and there does not seem to be any other avoids, but then again I am a rookie at this stuff, so I listed the ingredients below.

ORYX Goat Whey----Other Ingredients: Proprietary blend of Goat Milk Whey Protein (Goat Milk Whey Isolates, Goat Milk Whey Peptides, Goat Milk Whey Concentrates, Cocca, Lecithin & Prosucro.
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KimonoKat
Monday, April 16, 2007, 7:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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"Prosucro"  This appears to be an artificial/manufactured sugar; there's little to nothing that I could dig up on it.  It's doubtful that this ingredient would be a "neutral" for Type O's, or any other blood type for that matter.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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Don
Monday, April 16, 2007, 8:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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That is the goat whey product I looked at.

Prosucro from the product description appears to be Sucralose (Splenda), which I certainly wouldn't use.

I wrote the company about making a version without a sweetener and they responded:
We are looking into that. It's hard though, because goat whey doesn't taste very
well at all.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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thejuice
Monday, April 16, 2007, 8:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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That sucks because I ordered 2 tubs of the stuff right before I started this diet. I guess I can try and eBay it.
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Jane
Monday, April 16, 2007, 8:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Why don't you order the O Protein Powder from NAP, right on this site.  It's egg based.
Jane
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kevinmcl
Thursday, April 19, 2007, 8:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Jane
Why don't you order the O Protein Powder from NAP, right on this site.  It's egg based.


It's also EXPENSIVE!

Big buckets of high-quality whey-based protein cost far less per gram.

There's actually LESS work to do to isolate egg protein, as I understand the process, so the only reason for the price difference (other than the profit motive, which I can't fault, it makes the world go round...) would be the limited market, and the relative cost of the major raw material. There are lots of eggs in the world, but there are lots more gallons of moo-juice...

I'm wondering what harm I'm actually doing to myself when I take a couple of scoops of whey protein in the morning, during those weeks/months that egg protein is unavailable.

Let's say, two hefty scoops in the blender with a banana, some pineapple chunks, a glug of walnut oil, and the rest cherry juice.  Repeat five days a week for a month. Keeps me content (if burping... lotsa air in those shakes) until nearly noon. Am I flocculating to death and turning to crud inside, without even noticing?

Would it be just as bad with ORYX protein?  How bad is bad?

On a different tack, I'm not really clear on how goat milk is bad for me, yet goat cheese is fine.

For that matter, I came home from the supermarket last week with four different goat cheeses, including a soft unripened, a very convincing cheddar (aged, nippy...) and a couple of other variants. No doubt they are bad for me because they taste good. Oi!

I've tried rice protein powder before, and tossed 2/3 of a can. The "flavor" made me gag, no matter what I mixed it with.  I have a can of the NAP stuff for type-O on the way from Toronto, just to say I tried - hope they've managed to kill/disguise the taste.

Kevin  (not the most compliant of Os, but trying)
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KimonoKat
Thursday, April 19, 2007, 8:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted Text

I'm wondering what harm I'm actually doing to myself when I take a couple of scoops of whey protein in the morning, during those weeks/months that egg protein is unavailable.


Well for one, you are eating something your body can not break down well.  It flocculates your serum proteins, which is something I personally would not want, but it's up to you.

At some point, you have to determine that your health is worth the cost, if you want the convenience of eating this type of protein, vs cooking yourself a burger in the morning.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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jayney-O
Friday, April 20, 2007, 1:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I use an egg white protein powder called Simply Whites, by Biotech, which is fantastic in smoothies, and I don;t feel it is expensive.
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kevinmcl
Friday, April 20, 2007, 3:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KimonoKat


Well for one, you are eating something your body can not break down well.  It flocculates your serum proteins, which is something I personally would not want, but it's up to you.


No doubt I haven't read all the master's books (I have four), but there seems to be a chasm that never gets properly bridged.

On the one side is testing of a food sample against some reagents and some standardized concoctions of A B O representative components in a glass vessel in a lab. Out comes a pronouncement "flocculates serum proteins"

On the other side is an array of possible/probable health effects, ranging from "severe" to "will never be noticed".

What's missing is HOW BAD IS BAD?

I've seen the technical description of flocculation. I think I've even seen a micrograph. Yup, looks like something that I don't want happening in me.

OK, so I eat a couple of slices of wheat bread and have a slice of cake at dessert. The next day, my joints feel stiff and a little sore, as if I'd abused them.
Or, I have corn-bread, sweetened with corn syrup... a couple of days of that, and I'm trying to eat any carb that's not nailed down.  These are obvious effects, once I know to look for them. Like a switch - off or on... well, a switch with a threshhold, but same basic idea.

I have a potato or two, and nothing much happens.
I have potatoes four or five days running, and I'm cranky, irritable, short-fused. A more subtle effect, but noticeable once I know to look for it.

I make my morning shake with cow-milk, and I'm clearing my throat all day. That night I snore more than usual - mucus over-production, or a change in mucus characteristics. Again, pretty obvious once I know to make the association.
I make the same shake with goat milk and the effect, while still there, is barely noticeable.

In each case, the quantity consumed is measurable in pounds or kilograms.

Now what about the evil black pepper?  I dash a gram or less on my whole meal.
Other than making the meal taste better, I've never detected an effect. Digestion proceeds much as it always does. No apparent irritation. No extra rumblings.

Same idea with citrus. I eat a grapefruit, it tastes good. No bad effect... but then it wasn't supposed to have a bad effect on Type O. But I eat an orange or a couple of clementines... still nothing detected.  
I eat a Mineola tangelo, and have a brief experience of heaven (gawd, they're yummy), and no detectable after-effects, but some say it's bad for me, and some say that because it's a grapefruit cross, it's actually good for me, or neutral...  oi!

Why is it that for the first forty years of my life, when at least two thirds of all that went into my mouth was an AVOID, I did not keel over and DIE? If every day, day-in, day-out, I was shoving milk, cheese, wheat, corn, pork, oranges, red kidney beans, etc., etc., as the MAJORITY of what I consumed, why did I not flocculate to death?  Why did my blood continue to flow?  With almost ALL the incoming fuel being the kind that gums up the works, why was not every single friggin' molecule of my blood not bound up into ugly little clumps?

Who remembers the movie "The Andromeda Strain"?  Why did my blood not literally turn to dust like that?

Why, when I started BTD and maintained strict adherence for four months did my blood pressure drop by less than ten points systolic, and five points diastolic? Why was there no additional change when I added Type O Deflect? Yet, when I later started taking a herbal concoction of holly, hawthorn and radish, the pressure dropped 25 points in a couple of weeks, and then another 15 over the next month, coming to "rest" at near-normal values it has maintained ever since?

These are questions that have lingered ever since I first heard of the BTD. Whenever anybody says two words about severity and relative effects, they start sounding like the catholic church (which I left)... every second question is answered with "It's a mystery" or "Trust in the Lord".

Why would umpty-twelve different TypeBase entries say "Type O - flocculates serum proteins. Aggravates a known disease condition" (or something like that)??  If it's a "known disease", then SAY what disease that is.  If it's "we're just guessing and generalizing and speculating", then say that.

How many AVOIDS have been determined by:

- getting a bunch of people (all blood types) to fast overnight
- taking blood before the test
- giving them a liter of water to drink
- taking urine sample
- feeding them substantial quantities of the single food-under-test
- taking blood within minutes of ingestion
- taking blood every half hour for the next six hours
- collecting every drop of urine they excrete for the entire test day
- taking blood ever two hours for the rest of the day
- letting them go home with thanks
- comparing and graphing the results of the ingested food on their blood components over time, and the key indicators in their urine...

THEN pronouncing that this substance is provisionally:

- neutral for this-and-that type
- a weak Avoid for this type
- a strong Avoid for that type

Later, work out how to fit a control group into the scenario.

Doesn't have to be done on every food. Does have to be done on enough that you can say the guy in the lab, flocculating samples against standard solutions is replicating the essentials of what goes on in a real blood-stream.  Maybe that happened. Maybe it still happens a couple of times per year in a lab or clinic somewhere... but where's the blog or thread? Where are the write-ups?

I read the thread on how the testing is done, and it didn't describe that kind of testing on real people with real blood.  Perhaps I misread.

Quoted from KimonoKat

At some point, you have to determine that your health is worth the cost, if you want the convenience of eating this type of protein, vs cooking yourself a burger in the morning.


Yeah well...  See above.
If the inconvenience to myself and family was balanced against testable, see-able, feelable outcomes, then the decision would make itself.

As it is, I spent a few months testing to see if I noticed any difference between the burger-for-breakfast (well, interspersed with eggs, chops, fish, etc. for variety), the shake-for-breakfast, and the shake-for-breakfast plus a double dose of Deflect all day... made any discernible difference.  After those few months, I stopped buying the Deflect - I could not see what I was getting for my money. I still have eggs for breakfast some days(I try not to have bacon very often), but the shake is king. And day to day I notice no repeatable difference.  Perhaps I'm just dull, and a person with a better brain or sharper senses would detect sharp distinctions... but ...

Clarity. Clarity would be nice.

Yes, I know that nobody is twisting my arm, and I can make my own decisions (which, well, I do). But _effectively_ I'm being asked to generalize from the very few congruent reactions that I can personally detect to a whole bunch of others - virtually every food substance I could conceivably ingest - on the basis of similarity. It reminds me of sympathetic magic.  If the connection between theory and test-tube-only results is reliably connected to macro effects, I'd like to see that connection expressed more strongly and clearly.

Kevin  (grumpy this morning, and haven't even had potatoes this week)
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KimonoKat
Friday, April 20, 2007, 4:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Hi grumpy Kevin,

Here is something Dr. D said on the Soy Alert thread

Quoted Text

Finally, you can't just evaluate a food based on how it made you feel in the last half hour. Yes, there are allergies and intolerances, but often deeper knowledge tells us that there are sometimes more important things than subjective feelings. Flossing my teeth is not high up on the list of things that make me feel great. But deeper knowledge tells me that there is an advantage to doing it in the long term.


I know this does not help answer your long list of questions, and I don't know the answer to many of them.   If you feel that Dr. D has not given a detailed enough explaination as to why certain foods are avoid for your type, that is your right.  But please consider that the answer (to some of your questions) may partly involve Dr. D's own research with the thousands of patients he's actually treated in his clinic, instead of just relying on the research with foods he's done in his lab.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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jayney-O
Friday, April 20, 2007, 5:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Kevin's questions are excellent! For myself, in the meantime, (until that type of research is done) I consider myself to be the lab. As Kevin does. The nightshade thing is so true for my arthritis.....the wheat and corn thing is subtler, but my asthma has been much less of an issue since I don;t eat them, oh and less joint pain.......high protein keeps me grounded and not having blood sugar spikes....etc. so good luck, Kevin, and I love your questions! (but....exaaaactly what do avocadoes do?)

Revision History (4 edits)
thejuice  -  Friday, April 20, 2007, 5:30pm
thejuice  -  Friday, April 20, 2007, 5:29pm
thejuice  -  Friday, April 20, 2007, 5:28pm
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kevinmcl
Friday, April 20, 2007, 6:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from jayney-O
Kevin's questions are excellent! For myself, in the meantime, (until that type of research is done) I consider myself to be the lab. As Kevin does. The nightshade thing is so true for my arthritis.....the wheat and corn thing is subtler, but my asthma has been much less of an issue since I don;t eat them, oh and less joint pain.......high protein keeps me grounded and not having blood sugar spikes....etc. so good luck, Kevin, and I love your questions! (but....exaaaactly what do avocadoes do?)


Avocado makes guacamole. What more could you POSSIBLY need to know on that score?    

Among all my other whining and whinging, a question that keeps poking me in the eye every time I visit TypeBase is:

"Contains component which can modify known disease susceptibility."

So, as I mentioned in the earlier post, why not come right out and SAY which disease we're talking about? If it's all diseases (unlikely in the extreme...) then say that.
And "modify ... susceptibility".  That implies "more" OR "less". Otherwise, you say "increases" or "decreases", and lay the question to rest, yes?  
Since it just says "modifies susceptibility" does that mean I can eat some one day and thereby be made LESS susceptible to the mystery disease, and eat some another day, causing me to become MORE susceptible to the mystery disease? Is it affected by the phase of the moon? By which way the wind blows? By how I hold my mouth? By which of the gods I've recently offended?

Generalizations and ambiguities always cover something. (Yes, that was a generalization... what am I hiding?)  
Or, they appear to. In a world where appearance is everything, what does that suggest?

Kevin

Inquiring minds are always incovenient, often annoying, sometimes dangerous.
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Lola
Friday, April 20, 2007, 11:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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it s all about individuality.

each one has a different reaction .....
some people eat avoids during their whole life and stay healthy, others get diabetes, cancer, arthritis.........btd simply shows you where the red flags are, and it s up to each one of us to tweak our lifestyle to our convenience.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Lola
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fresh ground pepper is fine for you.......get the pepper corns and grinder.
store bought ground pepper is prone to mold.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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Dr. D
Friday, April 20, 2007, 11:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kevin,

KK asked me to jump in here. You raise several interesting points and I thought I'd answer a few.

Quoted Text

So, as I mentioned in the earlier post, why not come right out and SAY which disease we're talking about? If it's all diseases (unlikely in the extreme...) then say that. And "modify ... susceptibility".  That implies "more" OR "less". Otherwise, you say "increases" or "decreases", and lay the question to rest, yes?


You can get a pretty good idea what these conditions are by checking out the blood type and disease database off the individualist wiki or referring to the Encyclopedia. The reason the explanations are so obscure is that the data file that typebase uses only has a simple code for the explanation field. I suppose I could always go back and cross-reference this with the exact and specific disease or illness that was involved in that process, and perhaps with time I will. For now one can assume that and avoid with that explanation makes an underlying pathology specific to that type worse and a beneficial does something to lower the risk.  


Quoted Text
On the one side is testing of a food sample against some reagents and some standardized concoctions of A B O representative components in a glass vessel in a lab. Out comes a pronouncement "flocculates serum proteins" On the other side is an array of possible/probable health effects, ranging from "severe" to "will never be noticed". What's missing is HOW BAD IS BAD?


Hard to say. Generally the sicker you are, the badder bad gets. Certain illnesess in particular, seem to tie more directly with cause and effect results, such as auto-immune diseases, inflmator conditions of the bowels and intestines, psoriasis, blood dyscrasias (imbalances), thyroid problems, immune functions during chemotherapy. Many people just as yourself may feel that an avoid produces no tangible effect that they can directly say is 'a poison.' Under those circumstances one might question the validity of avoiding these types of food, especially if they don't make you feel sick. Perhaps even just ignore them. Of course, we could argue the same thing about smoking: It seems that a lot of people feel pretty good after a cigarette, and a few even manage to die from something other than emphysema or cancer,perhaps after a long and happy life. Smoking does not guranntee that you will get cancer. Smokers have about a seven fold greater risk of cancer, but that is far from 100%. A lot of the effect sof following the diet are cumulative benefits from  doing it, but that cumulative effect is different in different people.

Quoted Text
Why is it that for the first forty years of my life, when at least two thirds of all that went into my mouth was an AVOID, I did not keel over and DIE? If every day, day-in, day-out, I was shoving milk, cheese, wheat, corn, pork, oranges, red kidney beans, etc., etc., as the MAJORITY of what I consumed, why did I not flocculate to death?  Why did my blood continue to flow?  With almost ALL the incoming fuel being the kind that gums up the works, why was not every single friggin' molecule of my blood not bound up into ugly little clumps?


Have you ever looked. The people who do the darkfield microscopy in their practices find roleux formation (red blood cells stacked as coins) in almost all their patients. Almost every one I've ever spoke to said that this diminished or disappeared when a patients followed the diet for their blood type. Our bodies are wonderfully redundant, and many of our compensatory mechanisms have lots of overkill. I can promise you this if your were get a case of bad viral gastroenteritis, wait a day, then eat a few avoids. You'll have a totally different experience of them.

Quoted Text
Why would umpty-twelve different TypeBase entries say "Type O - flocculates serum proteins. Aggravates a known disease condition" (or something like that)??  If it's a "known disease", then SAY what disease that is.  If it's "we're just guessing and generalizing and speculating", then say that.


Flocculation is really a precipitin reaction.

http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Precipitin

Precipitins mostly lead to immune complexes, combinations of antigen (mostly but not always blood group antigens) and antibody.

http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Immune_complex

In addition to depositing in the tissues, immune complexes typically activate complement, a series of corrosive enzymes that are an end-game for the immune system:

http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Complement_System

Complement often has very obscure effects in the body, but almost always upregulates inflammation, and in some instances it can do things to the way you see poisons, including having you liver fixate on an initial small dose of toxin, while subsequently allowing a larger amount to pass through completly undetoxified, often with no apparent symptomatic effects.


http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Schwartzman_Phenomenon_(Schwartzman_Reaction)

Quoted Text
- getting a bunch of people (all blood types) to fast overnight
- taking blood before the test
- giving them a liter of water to drink
- taking urine sample
- feeding them substantial quantities of the single food-under-test
- taking blood within minutes of ingestion
- taking blood every half hour for the next six hours
- collecting every drop of urine they excrete for the entire test day
- taking blood ever two hours for the rest of the day
- letting them go home with thanks
- comparing and graphing the results of the ingested food on their blood components over time, and the key indicators in their urine...


Great idea, except that there are currently no tests remotely sensitive enough  to do this. That is what the field of metabolomics is trying to do:

http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Introduction_to_Metabolomics

Although we are a long way from doing it to any great degree any time soon. Rather, we just have to test people who are messed up over along period of time, juggle their diets, and see if long terms biomarkers improve.

Quoted Text
Why, when I started BTD and maintained strict adherence for four months did my blood pressure drop by less than ten points systolic, and five points diastolic? Why was there no additional change when I added Type O Deflect? Yet, when I later started taking a herbal concoction of holly, hawthorn and radish, the pressure dropped 25 points in a couple of weeks, and then another 15 over the next month, coming to "rest" at near-normal values it has maintained ever since?


Maybe the BTD made you sensitive to the hawthorne formula



I've used those herbs for decades and they don't work like that normally by a country mile!

Anyway hope this helps, gotta go. Dinner's getting cold.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand

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thejuice  -  Sunday, April 22, 2007, 4:52am
corrected quote code for you
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Lola
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Sa Bon Nim
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bonne appetite


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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jayney-O
Saturday, April 21, 2007, 10:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Wow! Kevin! You got one heck of a response, and I just want to say that I deeply appreciate the great answers that your questions brought from Dr. D. I found the complement system very interesting...inflammation is the big thing I want to affect with my diet....to prevent asthma, keep arthritis symptoms down, etc.
And just that he took the time to clarify and discuss when he certainly didn't have to... or to do it so graciously.
Thank you, Dr. D.

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