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flax-toxins, allergens &chia  This thread currently has 1,122 views. Print Print Thread
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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 4:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Dr D. writes in his book that flaxseeds are helpful for a strong immune system for type O and help lower the risk of cancer but according to Ayerza & Coates' book, "Chia" (U of A Press 2005), "flax was not used as a food historically, probably due to it containing a number of factors that interfere with normal development of the body...mainly the presence  of toxic cyanoglycosides (limarin), a Vitamin B6 antagonist and other antinutritional factors including cyanogenic glycosides, trypsin inhibitors, phytic acid, allergens, and goitrogens. (p. 120 & 121)". It is also listed as a potential allergen for some people with nut allergies. I think i may have a slight allergy to it but I need it for elimination. (I tried the chia seeds and got a strong allergic reaction so I won't be taking that). any thoughts?
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Lola
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 4:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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so you have a reaction to flax also?


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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KimonoKat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 4:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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You have to realize, that the information in the book you are referencing is aimed at the whole population, and we are not all the same.  Scientific research has shown that the digestive systems of the ABO Types are different from each other, especially in regard to the enzyme intestinal alkaline phosphotase (IAP).  Scientists have known about these differences for over 40 years.  You can read about that in the wiki Here, and in this blog entry by Dr. Tom Greenfield.

Have you used flaxseed?  And, if you do, how do you use it?  Do you soak your seeds and then drink that mixture, or do you grind them and add them to smoothies or salads?

If you are worried about taking flaxseed, how about switching to Dr. D's Larch?


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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Don
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 4:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Flaxseed is only neutral for type O non-secretors.

In the book “The Omega-3 Connection” by Andrew L. Stoll, M.D. it recommends not consuming more than 2 to 3 Tbsp. of flaxseed or flaxmeal per day because the seed husks contain naturally occurring cyanogenic nitrates and linamarin, which can be toxic in higher doses.  The cyanogenic nitrates interfere with the thyroid gland’s ability to take up iodine and may lead to goiter or other thyroid problems.  Immature seeds contain higher amounts of cyanogenic nitrates and glucosides and are more dangerous.  Flaxseeds also contain lignans, which have mild estrogenic, antiestrogenic, and steroidlike activity.  These problems are not present with flaxseed oil.

As a type O secretor I typically use one heaping tbsp of flaxseed, ground and soaked, before breakfast every day.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Schluggell
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 5:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from pat
...according to Ayerza & Coates' book, "Chia" (U of A Press 2005), "flax was not used as a food historically...


Not sure how he got that conclusion, As it was used....
However if you limit the use to the word "Flax", maybe? But the etymology of the words 'Flax' and 'Line' are convolutingly linked with the word 'Linseed' which definitely was used as a food source and is also Flaxseed.


Which also refering to the 'toxic' compounds - there is a difference in the oil/seed powder from Gold Flax {not the modern hybrid} and the more common {Present day} Black Flax.



Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
Bruno Manser, Ned Lud, August Sabbe, Richard St. Barbe-Baker, Eddie Koiki Mabo, Masanobu Fukuoka
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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 5:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thank you all for the helpful info. Yes, Have you used flaxseed?  I  soak the seeds and then drink that mixture. I just read in one of the blogs that gently heating it eliminates the toxic cyanoglycosides so I will have to try that.
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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 5:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I meant to say, yes, I have used flaxseed.
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Don
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 6:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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Pat, In case you didn't know you can edit/modify your posts for 72 hours after you post it, at least I think it is 72 hours.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 6:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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thanks.
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Heather73
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 6:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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http://www.fatsforhealth.com/library/libitems/flax.php
http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/english/index.php?p=what1&mp=what
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T041700.asp
It appears that the authors of the chia book are mistaken about flax not being used historically as a food source.

It is probably a good idea to follow the interest of the authors of any book or info snippet.  The chia book people seem to have a pro-chia bias, and so would benefit from painting a competitive product in a bad light.

One of the things I appreciate about Dr. D is that he does recognize that although certain foods are poisonous for some people, those same foods can be medicine for others.  This way of thinking helps me to make a lot of sense out of the seemingly conflicting data on what foods are the 'right' ones to eat.

Thank you, Dr. D'Adamo!
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Dr. D
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 9:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 9:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I agree. We also have to remember that info on flax may have originated by people who may have a pro-flax bias and everyone else (excluding Dr. D of course) may repeat the info without including any negatives. So there may be a bit of truth on both ends. I seem to be allergic to both.

Revision History (1 edits)
pat  -  Thursday, February 15, 2007, 5:36pm
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Tina
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 9:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Seems that I can do flaxseeds soaked overnight but not freshly ground.  Since they are only a neutral, I guess they are not totally essential for me anyway, huh?  I feel too bloated when I use them unsoaked, but not when I soak them in water overnight.  Have heard the cooking them is better as well, not sure about it.

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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 10:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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there's another thread that includes a discussion on heating flax
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pat
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 11:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Oh dear. I sure hope I didn't give the impression that I think Dr. D may have regurgitated the info on flax. On the contrary. I was talking about other authors.  

Here is some info I copied off a website In case it is true, it might be helpful:
Quoted Text
Using an excess of flax seed can contribute to the back up in your colon. Flax seeds also have small traces of prussic acid, which is toxic in large amounts. But it would take a lot of flax seeds to reach the toxic level. Allergies to flax are very rare, but it is always best to be cautious. When starting to eat flax, as with any new food product, start with a small amount. If you have a history of allergies, we recommend 1/4th teaspoon or less per day for the first week. If no adverse effects are noted, gradually work up to the recommended amount of flax, which is 2 to 4 tablespoons per day. Health experts recommend an intake of 2 to 4 tablespoons per day. Please note, however, that flaxseed is high in fiber—you should generally start with about 1/2 to 1 tsp per day, and gradually add more until you reach the recommended amount. Give yourself about a month to get to the recommended amount per day. When adding fiber to one's diet, it is important to drink an adequate amount of fluid—about eight glasses of water per day.

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pat  -  Thursday, February 15, 2007, 1:49pm
Put quoted text in quote box
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Lola
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 11:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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tell us all you know on chia, pls!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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pat
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 12:06am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I found the articles online and printed them long ago. (My herbalist also says chia is far superior to flax -if you aren't allergic to nuts and seeds):
"Chia Seeds' by Bioresources Research Facility of the Univ. Of Arizona
"Chia Introduction" -Southwest Center for Natural Products Research & Commercialization Office of Arid land Studies, the University of Arizona 2001.
"The Secret of Chia" (The book?): An interview with James Scheer by Richard Passwater, PhD
If you can't find any info online using those titles etc. let me know and I can try to summarize.
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Lola
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 12:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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thanks!!
great source of omega 3 I believe.

I add a tablespoon to my salads everyday!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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pat
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 1:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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PS Ayerza & Coates are the authors of -"Chia Seeds" from the Southwest Center for Natural Products Research & Commercialization Office of Arid land Studies, at the University of Arizona 2001. They are the ones ones that I quoted when I started this thread in case that has any relevancy.
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resting
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 2:49am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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great info Pat,

omega-3 ALA is a very important fat especially for primates (D. Rudin).  When he wrote the book, he said that sea plants (phytoplankton) have ALA in large amounts.  Until very recently we could not concentrate this enough for food.  But newer technology has made phytoplankton as a food-supplement extraordinaire http://www.marinecure.com !

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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pat
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 4:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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So much good stuff comes from the ocean it seems. I don't know if this will give the laxative effect I need but I'll look into it more. Or I may just have to stick with rice bran.  
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Schluggell
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 9:36am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from pat
...from the Southwest Center for Natural Products Research & Commercialization Office of Arid land Studies, at the University of Arizona 2001...


It could be that for the health issues stated would be to Native American BTs?..
As Chia would have been more of a 'native food'...along with the Rice Grass.
There are were plants related to Flax in Americas - However the modern Flax would be an import.


I question the validity of cooking being of any help in breaking down/detoxifying the 'cyanoglycosides'. And realistically this compound, of itself, is not the issue.
Its the enzymatic reaction {Beta-Glucosidase} of our intestinal microflora that may release the Cyanide, and other factors (Benzene) that cause the problems.
http://www.navi.net/~rsc/krebs3.htm


'Limarin' is the active ingredient {Silymarin} in Blessed Milk Thistle.
{Silybum marianum - Asteraceae , subf: Lactucoideae, Tribe: Cardueae}




Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
Bruno Manser, Ned Lud, August Sabbe, Richard St. Barbe-Baker, Eddie Koiki Mabo, Masanobu Fukuoka
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pat
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 5:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Update: to see if I get the same reaction, I tried the recommendation to start slowly. So as usual I soaked my flax and chia and separately took about a quarter of a tsp. of each with the the rice bran I take for elimination. Since I may also have a slight reaction to the rice bran, any reaction I might have had was not as noticeable. (Next I will take the rice and seeds separately to see which one or both is giving me the slight reaction).
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pat
Thursday, February 15, 2007, 11:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Do you know if the Gold flax considered to better or more tolerable than the black one?
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Lola
Friday, February 16, 2007, 12:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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both are fine......


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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pat
Friday, February 16, 2007, 12:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Schluggell

Which also refering to the 'toxic' compounds - there is a difference in the oil/seed powder from Gold Flax {not the modern hybrid} and the more common {Present day} Black Flax.


Do you know if the Gold is no as toxic as the Black flax?
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Schluggell
Friday, February 16, 2007, 10:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I know of no studies that try to caompare either one together.
And unfortunately those that talk about Gold Flax at present are referring mostly to the hybrid form as this is the one promoted by Agribusiness at present.

However, in my years of delving into wild foods and the 'healthy way'  I have met "Old Timers" {Health Nuts & Old Europeans} that advocated the Gold Flax over the Brown for Sprouts and Oil - and its these individuals that seem to always be 'spot on' with their 'instincts'. They used the Brown for the Meal/Powder.

My guess is there is a reason for the Brown Colour - The trouble is to find a good source of Heirloom Gold Flax Seed. Personally I thinks this is a good bit of paranoia -For it is most likely a high dose of Brown Flax seed to have any problems, certainly though if you already have mitigating factors ie. Thyroid OR have a Native American Phenotype....


Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
Bruno Manser, Ned Lud, August Sabbe, Richard St. Barbe-Baker, Eddie Koiki Mabo, Masanobu Fukuoka
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resting
Friday, February 16, 2007, 12:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi pat,

earlier this winter, I was plagued with a constant problem of diarrhea which did not seem to yield to very much intervention.  That is until I had a bm that was green coloured.  Thinking this situation 'nuts' [I purposely swear off having any chlorophyll (greens) during our extremely harsh winters.]

So onto the internet I go .... and find that this is one of the tell-tale signs for IBS (irritable bowel syndrome).  The sites have some intriguing information .... IBS is usually accompanied by chronic diarrhea but can also be marked by severe constipation (or the cycling of the two).

STRATEGIES: for a fast resolution -
1) I tend to react positively to a very high level of L-glutamine (@60g/day) .  [Glutamine as a mildly sweet-tasting powder.  For these amounts, it is often used by bodybuilders and it is much less expensive than hfs brands.]

2) One site recommended a grain-soup dish with 1 tsp of soluble fibre.  I think such can be made BTD-compliant.  For me: that would be long-grain hulled (rice has a mid-brown hull) brown rice + 1tsp (to begin) of ARA-6 http://www.4yourtype.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NP001.  The IBS-site does not recommend any insoluble fiber be eaten for a few days, because such fiber works by irritating an already irritated colon.  [this bland diet is only for a few days, tops.]

I note that you say you have reaction, but never do put a name to it.  You seem set on eating much insoluble fiber .... might you have IBS (the constipating kind)?

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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pat
Friday, February 16, 2007, 5:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I had looked up the description/symptoms of IBS before but it didn't quite seem to fit me but I suppose its possible and if it is, I'm hoping that this BTD diet and supplements will eventually result in less dependence on rice bran (a combination of soluble and insoluble fiber) and magnesium to keep things moving. The ND who recommended the diet said that he expected so.  I get a headachy feeling and start sneezing. I have taken L Glutamine. As soon as the NAP supplents arrive I will be focusing on the Yeast/Fungus protocol and after that focus more on any residual GI inflammation. I hope this sequence is a good way to approach it. Some of the Y/F supplements have antiinflammatory properties as well. I also use mesquite leaves that I gather here in Arizona for GI inflammation. (also desert willow for the candida).
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pat
Friday, February 16, 2007, 5:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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As far as I know, my mix of Mexican American & Anglo ancestry includes no Native American blood but I guess I can't be 100% sure. I may try the Gold but I also may just cut out the flax altogether. Thanks for your input.
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pat
Friday, February 16, 2007, 8:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from pat
...according to Ayerza & Coates' book, "Chia" (U of A Press 2005), "flax was not used as a food historically, probably due to it containing a number of factors that interfere with normal development of the body...mainly the presence  of toxic cyanoglycosides (limarin), a Vitamin B6 antagonist and other antinutritional factors including cyanogenic glycosides, trypsin inhibitors, phytic acid, allergens, and goitrogens. (p. 120 & 121)".


Clarification: I copied that from an email I got from a local herbalist but I decided to look in my abstract copy of their report and all it says is:
Quoted Text
Since oxidation in chia is minimal to non existent, it holds great potential within the food industry compared to other a-linolenic fatty acid sources such as flax, which exhibit rapid decomposition due to a lack of antioxidants. Flax also contains toxic cyanoglycosides and a Vitamin B6 antagonist compound.

My copy is an abstract so I hope my herbalist was being truthful about the rest.
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