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Ronald66
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 9:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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[face=Arial][/face]

I am Type O male, and would like some clarification about EPO or GLA.

In the BTD books, one lists it as a 2nd Tier "AVOID", while on the website it is again listed as an "AVOID" for Type Os because it "increases the action of toxins", but fine for other blood types.

But I saw somewhere else on the website("Heidi"?) that this precaution over EPO no longer applies, and refers us to the "Female Protocol" page in the Encyclopedia. Looking in the latter, I was unable to verify this.

Can anyone please clarify this?

Ronald (First Timer)
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Sam Dan
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Ronald66,

this MAY seem to be a simple blood-type distinction but it is more subtle than this (experience).  A's, B's and AB's tend to do best with oils containing GLA of the omega-6 family because it also produces PgE1 to control the highly inflammatory PgE2.  0's control PgE2 via PgE3, which is derived from omega-3's EPA (fish oil).

There are whole diet strategies based on preventing PgE2 production (The Zone).  Very few understand that the sole reason for PgE2's existence is to sequester zinc.  Sandwiching zinc between the membrane-wall and taurine ... the liver gives each cell much needed stability with this structure.  It is also highly anti-inflammatory.

So I tend to split omega-6 oils and omega-3 oils on a seasonal rather than a blood-type basis.  Omega-6's for spring - summer and omega-3s for fall - winter.

Since this regards fats, this is not a lectin issue and I feel much more at ease challenging the BTD on this topic.

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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Don
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 2:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Quoted from Ronald66
But I saw somewhere else on the website("Heidi"?) that this precaution over EPO no longer applies, and refers us to the "Female Protocol" page in the Encyclopedia. Looking in the latter, I was unable to verify this.

I can't say for sure what Heidi meant by that comment (http://www.dadamo.com/bloggers/otd/archives/00000273.htm).

However, EPO is not listed in the Female balancing protocol in the Encyclopedia or online. Maybe Heidi got confused, because black current seed oil is listed for type A and AB in that protocol.
Quoted from Evening Primrose Oil
http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?158
Secretor:
AVOID: Enhances effect of other food toxins.

Non Secretor:
AVOID: Enhances effect of other food toxins.



FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Ronald66
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 3:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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John,
Interesting.......but how does that link in with proscribing EPO for Type Os? As long as Os do not take EPO to the exclusion of w3 EFAs?

Ronald66
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Lola
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 4:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ronald,
welcome!)
get acquainted with the forum and all features
of this website.
If you go to the top of the page and click on
member centre (on the top right hand side of
this page) and get yourself a nice avatar
(located on the left) then we can all see what
blood type you are and you won't have to type it each time you post.
-if you want to add information below your avatar setting, such as Rh +/-, by going to the Profile Information section in the Member Center and typing in the Personal Message box.  You can also create a Signature of any other information you want to share that will go at the bottom of every message you post.
-You can also create a Signature of any other information you want to share that will go at the bottom of every message you post.
.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Lola
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 4:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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Evening primrose oil (EPO), contain gamma
linolenic acid (GLA), a fatty acid that the
body converts to a hormone-like substance
called prostaglandin E1 (PGE1). PGE1 has
anti-inflammatory properties and may also act
as a blood thinner and blood vessel dilator.
In type A and AB's this is a functional
supplement but in O's it's problematic due to
the risk of hemorrhagic strokes.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Lola
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 4:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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As Dr D. says, “Too much of a good thing may
be no good.”
if oatmeal is so great, why is it only neutral
for Type O?  It turns out that GLA, gamma
linoleic acid, is not so great for Type O
because it could increase our already greater
risk of hemorrhagic stroke.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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Lola
Wednesday, January 31, 2007, 4:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
Dr D:
EPO is not the oils, but rather the source, Oenothera biennis. Primrose can be a potent allergen for type O.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Sam Dan
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ty very much MoDon and Lola,

I had never been aware of the reaction to EPO as opposed to black currant seed oil ... both high GLA sources.  It might best to supplement with black currant seed oil in the spring + a small amount of AA http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mn/xfactor.html to attempt to mime the lipid profile of human colostrum.  Human-colostrum is also very high in zinc and taurine.

Human colostrum has a significant quantity of Di-hommo gamma linolenic acid (DGLA) it does the same job as GLA to bypass the enzyme block caused by the lack of a zinc enzyme, delta-6-desaturase (D6D).  This same enzyme cascades both EFA families and is probably the major reason why we eat fish oil and not rely on flax and/or chia seeds, both high ALA (of the omega3's) to cascade into the longer EPA.

Ronald, the rational for accenting omega-6's for spring and summer seasons + omega-3 suppleents during winter times is mainly for zone-temperature reasons - omega-6 for warmer climates + omega-3 for winter.  This way, the use of GLA is short-lived.  

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius


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Lola
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thanks you John ....every post of yours is a learning experience!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Ronald66
Thursday, February 1, 2007, 11:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

Lola's reference to haemorrhagic strokes is a little alarming. As is the assertion that the primrose is specially allergenic for Type Os. But where are the supporting references for these ....particularly in the BTD? Does the big man...Dr D'Adamo sometimes come in on these issues?

John's discussions on EFAs also leaves me a little confused. The parent EFAs linoleic acid(LA) and alpha linonenic acid(ALA) are converted as required to w6 derivatives( GLA, CLA) and w3 (EPA, DHA)derivatives, respectively, in the body. Except for about 2 to 20% of populations most are able to do this. Most supplements focus on the balance of derivative EFAs, but the parent compounds may be as important. Arachidonic acid(AA) is a step in this conversion for the w6 EFAs, and is itself very important for the body. And I'm still not with the idea of varying w6/w3 EFA consumption seasonally....given that at any point in time the body requires both.

So, I'm still waiting for the answer to the statement in BTD that for Type Os EPO "enhances the action of food toxins"...
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Sam Dan
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Hi Ronald66,

I never did see any figures (whether 2% or 20%) about the folks not able to convert either EFA family.  I have to re-read because maybe they mean the majority of people with illness.  The D6D-block is very persistent for many zinc deficient states like alcohol consumption.  I know of at least one researcher who swears the omega-3 cascade just does not happen for the majority of people, so insists a small supplement of fish oil each day.  [AA is in many meats, so eating meat bypasses the block in the omega-6 cascade.  If this person also too fish oil, then block in both families are overcome.]

These suggestions are for supplementation.  Many foods do have an appreciable amount of EFA's.  The supplement is just in addition to this amount.

John

PS.  CLA is a derivative but not a cascade-derivative and because it has 3 unsaturated sites (2 cis configured + 1 trans) it is likely either a derivative of GLA or ALA ... not sure which.  CLA operates somewhat the way side-tracks operate.  The trans end stops the 'end' of the molecule, a defective package gets de-railed so the main-line (transport) can continue to function.


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius


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John_McDonell_O+  -  Thursday, February 1, 2007, 2:59pm
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Don
Thursday, February 1, 2007, 2:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Quoted from Ronald66
But where are the supporting references for these ....particularly in the BTD? Does the big man...Dr D'Adamo sometimes come in on these issues?
...
So, I'm still waiting for the answer to the statement in BTD that for Type Os EPO "enhances the action of food toxins"...

I wouldn't expect Dr. D to participate on the forum at the moment. He is busy trying to meet a deadline on the new Genotype Diet book.

Dr. D has not provided us a step by step explanation of every decision he has made about the BTD. I think many of us wish he had written a more detailed book because we wanted that type of information when we began the BTD. However, once we were on the diet for a while and experienced how it really works we were just grateful that he developed the BTD and provided the information we need to use it.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Ronald66
Thursday, February 1, 2007, 11:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
Hi Ronald66,

I never did see any figures (whether 2% or 20%) about the folks not able to convert either EFA family.  I have to re-read because maybe they mean the majority of people with illness.


John,
This figure applies to individuals in coastal communities such as the Scandinavians or Inuits, who seem to have lost the genetic ability to convert w3 EFAs, and therefore have an absolute requirement for these in the diet. It may be that with the long abundance of seafood a mutation arose which deleted the enzyme. Somewhat similar to the loss of ability to produce ascorbic acid (vitamin C) by primates, guinea pigs, fruit bats. Most of us convert adequately,as required, but nutritionists tend to overestimate the body's requirement for w3 EFAs and so interprete the process as slow or inadequate. They also tend to forget that the parent EFAS are themselves widely used by the body.

Most nutritionists are under the misconception that a rough 1:1 ratio of w6:w3 is required, based on the ratio in the central nervous system, and focus on w3, which is relatively low in our diet. But the ratio in muscle is more like 5:1  to 7:1, while in most organs it's approx 4:1. We do have an excess of w6 in our diet in the west, but much of this is damaged through cooking and processing....supplementation with good w6 EFAs is also important. My questions here about EPO relates to my possibly using it as a w6 supplement.




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Lola
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Ronald, instead of just waiting for the answer on any subject and assuming some one is here only to answer, use the search function available in the home page and plunge into all the magnificent info available.......this is how we have all done it........and one more thing, this board is merely a support group, sharing experiences. Dr D has been generous enough to let us all register for free!!!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Sam Dan
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Hi Ronald66,

things is a wee bit weird here ... the only ratio that I've ever heard is 4:1.  However, this material is more than 25yrs and more complete analysis done since then.  It is also why hemp seed oil was preferred to flax oil.

There is also the notion of secretor status being very important to having sufficient IP (intestinal phosphatase) to digest fats.  Non-secretors with less IP do much better digesting whole food sources - fish, wild meat, nuts, seeds etc than only oil sources.  [I'll bet those people, also Nordic, Celts and natives of Alaska and Canada's north-west (Robert Blake) not only had a skewed lipid profile, but were/are also non-secretors.]

Very likely, I am one of these folk.  I had all kinds of trouble with EPO but have a much easier time with foods,  The oil for you then is either hemp oil or Udo's Choice Blend for a 4:1.  Instead of EPO as the source of omega-6 you may have better luck with black currant seed oil mixed with ghee and lecithin.

hope this helps,

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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Lola
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http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?477
does sound like a better option, thanks John!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Ronald66
Friday, February 2, 2007, 9:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from lola
Ronald, instead of just waiting for the answer on any subject and assuming some one is here only to answer, use the search function available in the home page and plunge into all the magnificent info available.......this is how we have all done it........and one more thing, this board is merely a support group, sharing experiences. Dr D has been generous enough to let us all register for free!!!


Lola, that's the first thing I did, before coming on to this site. Having failed to find what I had hoped for with the Search Function, it was natural then to come here in hope for further direction. I do still hope that the Doctor will weigh in when necessary, instead of just letting us stew in our own juices, so to speak....generous though that may seem!

John....any idea of the concentration of w6 in black currant seed oil? Or where I might find a list of the approximate EFA concentrations for such oils? Such figures would be important for mixing our oil supplements.
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
...I had never been aware of the reaction to EPO as opposed to black currant seed oil... both high GLA sources....John


Black Currant Oil is/was High Temperature Solvent Extracted not Cold-Pressed I believe...


Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
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Friday, February 2, 2007, 11:59am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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sorry Ronald66,

the only things I know for sure about black currant seed oil is that it is totally omega-6 (not a trace of omega-3) and that it has about twice the level of GLA than EPO.  The BTD has put a lot of kinks in the picture: because many good sources of EFA's are b-t-avoids.  When the oil blends were developed/manufactured blood type was not even considered.  Examples of this are sunflower and safflower oils.  These are the purest and likely the best sources for 100% LA of the omega-6 family.  Both these oils are nixed by BTD.

So we have a fairly short list of oils that are BTD-safe I think: black currant seed oil; pumpkin (seed) oil; sesame seed oil; hemp oil; flax oil and chia (seed) oil.   Rice and grape seed oils I know very little about.  Most of these oils have not been BTD tested .... some are 100% either omega-6 or omega-3 but most are a blend of the two .... hemp has problems aside from its superb EFA profile [it not only has omega-6:omega-3 at 1:4 but has some (rare) GLA and (rarer) SA of the omega-3 family].  These 'difficulties' Dr D has written about before.  Here is one site for hemp - http://www.hempseed.ca/hulled-vs-whole.ihtml - THIS SITE SELLS WHOLE HEMP SEEDS (ILLEGAL IN USA??) ... if not OK google 'hemp hearts'

John

PS: made several errors in my previous post ... when I wrote IP ...it is likely IAP for intestinal alkaline phosphatase


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius


Revision History (3 edits)
John_McDonell_O+  -  Friday, February 2, 2007, 11:41pm
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Lola
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doesn t linseed oil have the ideal 3 -6 ratio?
thought I read it somewhere......


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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nope....

linseed (flax) has plenty of EFA's, about 52% are omega-3 as ALA and 48% are omega-6 as LA, which is a poor 1:1 ratio.  But most folks are deficient in ALA, so use flax oil to catch-up.  Hemp is great for a 'maintenance role'.

John


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Lola
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the ratio should actually be 1:3 not 1:, and I think linseed does have that to its benefit.

avoid vegetable oils like sunflower oil are avoid because of too much omega-6.  We tend to only think of cholesterol.  While these may be OK in terms of cholesterol, they are pro-inflammatory because of negative effects on the omega-6omega-3 ratio.


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Ronald66
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
nope....

linseed (flax) has plenty of EFA's, about 52% are omega-3 as ALA and 48% are omega-6 as LA, which is a poor 1:1 ratio.  But most folks are deficient in ALA, so use flax oil to catch-up.  Hemp is great for a 'maintenance role'.

John


Actually the w3:w6 ratio of flax oil is usually in the range 3:I to 4:1, i.e. heavily weighted on the w3 side, so needs balancing with another, w6-heavy oil, like sesame or EPO oil. Which is what I have been doing myself, to a w3:w6 ratio of approx 1:2....and feeling the benefits.

You're right that the BTD parameters throw a spanner into the works of balancing these oils....together with the limited availability of these oils in the local health shops. But perhaps we should take to heart Dr PJD's own admonition not to approach the subject too rigidly or dogmatically....that would not be science, which is ever open to adjustment and revision in light of new evidence/observations.

I did just locate a good list on the fatty acid content of seed oils....in my busy week I forgot about that old book by Udo Erasmus on my bookshelf.....p 237 if you have the book. Very useful....but nothing on Black Currant Seed oil.
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Sam Dan
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well lola,

rather than going on memory (I'm a gittin old(er) actually looked it up ... ALA of omega-3 is 60% and LA of omega-6 is 20% so the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 is 3:1 (but should be @1:4).  The 'wild' thing is the amount recommended (Ronald66 was correct about the ability most have to convert into longer members of the families) .... so the daily amount of flax oil for a healthy adult (yielding 2g of omega-3 is) - '1' yep, ONE TEASPOON(@5ml).  Overdosing often means a return of all symptoms existing prior to normalizing EFA intake.  [ref. 'The Omega-3 Phenomenon' by D. Rudin and Clara Felix]

My disease is characterized by a (rare) malformation of the enzyme that digests EFA's.  This means that we genetically have too little ability to digest EFA's.  So the proper intake for me (and others) of EFA's is a must.  I'm sure not looking forward to all the effort into finding compliant BTD oils with proper EFA amounts, but I guess it should be done!

thanks for provoking me into doing something critical for my health  ................

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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Lola
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thanks!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Ronald66
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John,
I'm not sure what your "disease" is, but getting the EFA balance right has to be important for all of us, in view of the deficiencies of the modern diet. Aside from the restrictions of BTD and the limited availability of some of these oils, there's still a lot of uncertainty and misunderstandings about the EFAs.

I don't think this blog site allows attachments, but if you provide an alternate e-mail address I'll send you a recent document(pdf) specifically on calculating EFA ratios which is quite interesting.

Ronald
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Schluggell
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Quoted from lola
...and I think linseed does have that to its benefit...


'Linseed' as used in the US/CAN is the Industrial Grade Seed, not for Food-Grade. Thus its oil would be from a High Heat Solvent Extraction...and very little of the nutritional component.




Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
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Lola
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the one you add to smoothies, Schlug!  lol


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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Eat Right 4 Your Type  ›  Evening Primrose Oil

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