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The Masai Diet  This thread currently has 2,881 views. Print Print Thread
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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 9:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Although I am not Masai, I know a lot of them and know a lot about them.   I've discussed the concept of the BTD with Masai friends.  Incidentally most of the ones I know are Type O.  Their traditional diet consists of a lot of raw milk, meat, sometimes animal blood and very little (or no) vegetables, fruit or other foods.   The Masai have been widely documented to be one of the healthiest people on earth, along with the Dinka peoples.  They are super-healthy.  So what gives with the large amounts of raw milk they consume???  I thought this was a no-no for Type Os according to Dr D'Adamo and yet these people absolutely thrive on their diet.

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, September 13, 2007, 2:09am
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Lola
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:01pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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guess they don t have access to all the other modern food production junk out there!!!

like all corn derived high fructose, hydrogenated oils, GE food, ........should I go on?

Native Americans, Inuits were also a healthy folk until processed food invaded their stores.....
many have now lost arms or legs due to diabetes.

here s an old thread dealing with your very question on the Masai:
http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archive7/config.pl?read=30147


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:07pm
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semmens
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I know this doesn't conform to stricit BTD thought, but I have read lots on the NT (Nourishing Traditions, a book by Sallon Fallon) list that raw milk is so completely different than pasteurized that many O types have no problems with it.
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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from semmens
I know this doesn't conform to stricit BTD thought, but I have read lots on the NT (Nourishing Traditions, a book by Sallon Fallon) list that raw milk is so completely different than pasteurized that many O types have no problems with it.


I've read this too!

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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from lola
guess they don t have access to all the other modern food production junk out there!!!

like all corn derived high fructose, hydrogenated oils, GE food, ........should I go on?

Native Americans, Inuits were also a healthy folk until processed food invaded their stores.....
many have now lost arms or legs due to diabetes.



That still doesn't explain why Masai people THRIVE on a high cow's milk diet...


Plus, not every Westerner even eats high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, GE food and so on....



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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:13pm
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KimonoKat
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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What percentage of the daily intake is raw milk?  You haven't provided any information as to how "much" they really consume.

There are anomolies in everything.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KimonoKat
What percentage of the daily intake is raw milk?  You haven't provided any information as to how "much" they really consume.

There are anomolies in everything.


It varies from person to person somewhat but easily 30% or more of the total daily intake.  Just do a Google search if you require further information

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jayney-O
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Nature is very flexible....if consuming lots of vegetables isn't happening, then maybe milk is needed for calcium and other stuff....
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Lola
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Anyone for a nice warm, fresh cup of .......... cow blood?  
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Lola
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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and another thread, think it s interesting on raw milk.....
here s a quote by Heidi:

Quoted Text
I was about a month old. Hey-presto! I broke out in full-body hives. We lived on a dairy farm at the time, so my mother had a little light-bulb moment and the next experiment was raw milk. Hives went away; happy baby Heidi. Food for thought, eh? I wonder why that pasteurized stuff gave trouble and the raw milk did not. Maybe it was sweetened with corn syrup, as well as containing none of the natural enzymes that aid digestion?


http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archivea/config.pl?read=76190


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I've ordered some raw goat's milk cheese and I'm hoping it works out for me
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Lola
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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there s a type of sausage called 'moronga' or morcilla down here.......
it is basically pork blood.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moronga


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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KimonoKat
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 10:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Imho, Type O's should concentrate on beneficial foods, and leave the dairy for once a week (or ideally, less) small treat.



Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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AfricanTypeO
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 11:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KimonoKat
Imho, Type O's should concentrate on beneficial foods, and leave the dairy for once a week (or ideally, less) small treat.



It is possible that raw milk actually

is a beneficial food for Type O's.  It certainly appears to be for Masai Type O's
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Lola
Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 11:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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the natural sugar in cow milk is the same one as the type B antigen (D Galactosamine).....
that s the reason Bs thrive on dairy while all other types should just refrain from consuming it.....
our bodies get used to other 'not like' antigens, some have more severe reactions, others don t....
it is up to you to consume it, as long as you find it agrees with you.

yogurt is an avoid in most of the health library series........it s up to you! )


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 12:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from lola
the natural sugar in cow milk is the same one as the type B antigen (D Galactosamine).....
that s the reason Bs thrive on dairy while all other types should just refrain from consuming it.....
our bodies get used to other 'not like' antigens, some have more severe reactions, others don t....
it is up to you to consume it, as long as you find it agrees with you.

yogurt is an avoid in most of the health library series........it s up to you! )


Health Library series?  Were those written by Dr D'adamo?

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Lola
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 12:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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yes!!!
http://www.dadamo.com/books.htm

targeted to your needs!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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resting
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 1:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi peoples,

perhaps (I do not know, just speculating) that the process called pasteurization not only destroys microbes but alters (even creates) milk lectins.  We have learned that heat alters the structure of comb-honey to yield a product that actually promotes fungal infections.  Does the heat of the pasteurization process alter glucosamine into a form that makes it a strong lectin?

Knowing the avoid label on honey arises because of the ready supply of heated honey outstrips that of unheated honey, are we not involved here in a very similar issue?  Doesn't the very common pasteurized milk, almost totally outstrip the prevalence of the milk from the Masai diet?  Cow's pasteurized-milk is very common (and lectin-bound), but measuring Masai cow's-milk against this is a bit of a stretch, imho.

As such, wouldn't such milk fall under the 'unknown' category and be treated as such?

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 1:27am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
Hi peoples,

perhaps (I do not know, just speculating) that the process called pasteurization not only destroys microbes but alters (even creates) milk lectins.  We have learned that heat alters the structure of comb-honey to yield a product that actually promotes fungal infections.  Does the heat of the pasteurization process alter glucosamine into a form that makes it a strong lectin?

Knowing the avoid label on honey arises because of the ready supply of heated honey outstrips that of unheated honey, are we not involved here in a very similar issue?  Doesn't the very common pasteurized milk, almost totally outstrip the prevalence of the milk from the Masai diet?  Cow's pasteurized-milk is very common (and lectin-bound), but measuring Masai cow's-milk against this is a bit of a stretch, imho.

As such, wouldn't such milk fall under the 'unknown' category and be treated as such?

John



Totally agree with you!

So, does raw/untreated honey actually NOT promote fungal infections?
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KimonoKat
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 1:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO


It is possible that raw milk actually

is a beneficial food for Type O's.  It certainly appears to be for Masai Type O's


I don't believe it; although you are welcome to speculate on that.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 2:01am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from KimonoKat


I don't believe it; although you are welcome to speculate on that.


Thanks for allowing me to speculate
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 3:20am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I dunno.  I have a minor in international development in Animal Science, and I gotta say here that I'm going to have to quibble on the amounts of raw milk consumed AND the type of raw milk consumed.

First, I am writing this off the cuff, because I have not read the link.  While I studied the Masai as well as other African food traditions in college, I graduate in 1984, so some things could have changed.

You all know my opinion, as a former dairy milker, on consuming raw dairy.  In summary, my opinion is that you might as well lick a cow's butt as drink raw milk - one is about as clean as the other.  Not going over that stuff again.

Now, the thing is this:

First, when I was getting my An Sci degree, and especially for the International Development portion, we studied cattle A LOT.  At that time, the two major types of true cattle were classified as such:

Family: Bovidae (hence bovine) > Subfamily: Bovinae > Genus: Bos >

Species: taurus  -

the "European" cattle, which are all ones that we use here in the US for milk

AND

Species: Indicus -

the "African" and "Asian" cattle, most notibly the Zebu, which is nearly the only type of cow you find on the african continent

There are HUGE differences between these two species, which we studied in depth. At that time, one of the big "lessons" that we were taught was a fiasco that USAID had been involved with in trying to get traditional African tribes, including the Masai, to try using bos taurus cattle, such as the big black and white, super-milk-producing Holsteins that you see on the commercials for their milk instead of the tiny little zebu cattle.  The zebu were ane are used by these communities as a source of food, fuel, heat, and in desperate times, liquid.  

This folly organized and implemented by USAID at the cost of BILLIONS of dollars was a dismal failure.  The Bos taurus all stopped producing their buckets full of milk, ate too much, the milk that they DID produce seemed to make people ill, they didn't produce the right kind of manure that the communities use for fuel and on and on and on.  All of the cows that were put in place by USAID in this venture got either got sick and died or were completely rejected by the people who tried to use them.  The millions of dollars of infastructure that went along with this fiasco were abandoned or dismantled for other uses.  The people we far worse off when it was over than they started.  It was a giant waste of life, time and dollars.

What the people who implemented all of this had failed to realize was that the zebu cattle and the people who lived with them had a very symbiotic relationship, and bos tarus did not fit into this relationship in any way.  The species were so different that they could not be interchanged.

Now I notice that they have done away with the species "indicus" and all "true cattle, bison, buffalos, etc" are all lumped under "taurus" BUT, "taurus" had always ONLY indicated European cattle that don't have humps.  This EXCLUDES buffalo and bison.

A little link of gobblety-gook where someone is obviously challenging the lumping of "indicus" and "tarus" together:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....02&dopt=Abstract

SO

Let's look a little bit deeper here.

While all milk and milk products are basically avoids for Type O, this is based on the milk coming from a EUROPEAN - based cow aka bos taurus.  HOWEVER, cheese - FRESH CHEESE IN PARTICULAR - that comes from BUFFALO is neutral for type O.  BUFFALO, up until they did away with the species "indicus" in classifying genus "bos", were in the same SPECIES as african cattle - the zebu - which is the breed used by the Masai.

SO

technically, according to OLD species classification, the Masai consume milk from an animal that comes from the same SPECIES as buffalo and bison.

I think that is the real difference in this issue.  Once again, you cannot compare apples to oranges.  In the BTD, there IS  difference between the milk from a cow and the milk from a buffalo.

Secondly, as I said before, we studied a LOT about the African nations and their food consumption, and while, yes, when given the opportunity, they DO consume milk, you have to realize that zebu cattle neither produce the same kind nor the same amounts of milk that Holsteins and Jersey cattle do (the most common European milkers here in the US - Jersey cows are the ones that look like the cow on the Borden products).  Additionally,  they don't produce milk for nearly as LONG as European cattle do.  This was the big reason that USAID started the whole, "we'll get them using bos tarus INSTEAD of bos indicus and then they can REALLY get some bang for their buck with the whole milking thing" idea.

ZEBU CATTLE DON'T PRODUCT THAT MUCH MILK AND MOST OF IT HAS TO BE USED FOR THE CALF.

The Masai and the other tribes that utilize their cattle in this fashion, in reality, get far more of their consistent cattle-based calories from blood consumption.  Unlike milk, that is only around after a cow gives birth AND must be shared by the calf, blood is available year round.  This is a staple of their diet that is derived from their domesticated animals.  Remember that this is used as suppliment to their traditional diet of slaughtered game.  You are right in that, traditionally, very little is consumed in the way of fruits and veggies - only when it is available, and almost NOTHING is consumed in the way of grains, at least traditionally.

I hope that this helps to clear this up.

To recap:

1)  As someone who milked 475 cows per day for one summer, I REALLY know all about raw dairy, and there is NOTHING that you could do to persuade me to consume it.  BLECH.

2)  You cannot compare the consumption of milk by the Masai to the milk that we get here in the US.  Up until they recently lumped "true" cattle into one species, the cows that the Masai have - the Zebu - were classified with buffalo and bison.  Fresh buffalo cheese is one of the few neutral dairy products for Os.  I would assume that both buffalo milk and zebu milk are neutral.

3) the Masai do NOT consume large quantities of milk.  The zebu cows are poor milk producers and do not nurse their calves as long as traditional european cows.  The milking season for the Masai would be short and not nearly as productive as you would imagine.  The milk must be used to grow a calf, as the calf's value would far outweigh the value of the milk they might use.  The Masai's main supplimentation, on a regular-year-'round basis from their cattle is that of blood.

OK.  Now, would you like to hear about my senior thesis on introducing guinea pigs as a supplimentary food source for tribes in Africa, based on the traditional consumption of guinea pigs by the mountain people of the Andes?


FRESH START TODAY!!!

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 3:41am
Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 3:23am
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LuHu
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 3:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from EquiPro


OK.  Now, would you like to hear about my senior thesis on introducing guinea pigs as a supplimentary food source for tribes in Africa, based on the traditional consumption of guinea pigs by the mountain people of the Andes?


Ok EP,

As this was the subject of your thesis I probably should err on the side of caution and guess that this last paragraph isn't meant as a joke. Nevertheless, you have me ROTFL! Please forgive if necessary!



"Some people look out and see a land of giants while others look out and see a land flowing with milk and honey."
(As BTDers, please substitute your most desirable, delightful bennie for the figurative 'milk and honey'!)
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 4:00am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer!
Sam Dan
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Oh, the thesis is no joke.  It was hard because there is VERY little information on the consumption of guinea pigs.  However, not necessary to actually get into it.  I guess it was to point out how much I feel like my degree is the jimble-jamble of basically useless information.  


FRESH START TODAY!!!
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Debra+
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Kyosha Nim
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Thank you EquiPro...that was a very informative good read.

Debra


"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." C.G. Jung"

O+nonT

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NewHampshireGirl
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 2:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Thank you, EquiPro!!!!    I learned so much from your posting.  I very much like to know details and was absolutely fascinated by what I read here.  The Masai people always look so healthy.  I'm glad AfricanTypeO brought up this subject.  Thanks!
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 4:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro
I dunno.  I have a minor in international development in Animal Science, and I gotta say here that I'm going to have to quibble on the amounts of raw milk consumed AND the type of raw milk consumed.

First, I am writing this off the cuff, because I have not read the link.  While I studied the Masai as well as other African food traditions in college, I graduate in 1984, so some things could have changed.

You all know my opinion, as a former dairy milker, on consuming raw dairy.  In summary, my opinion is that you might as well lick a cow's butt as drink raw milk - one is about as clean as the other.  Not going over that stuff again.

Now, the thing is this:

First, when I was getting my An Sci degree, and especially for the International Development portion, we studied cattle A LOT.  At that time, the two major types of true cattle were classified as such:

Family: Bovidae (hence bovine) > Subfamily: Bovinae > Genus: Bos >

Species: taurus  -

the "European" cattle, which are all ones that we use here in the US for milk

AND

Species: Indicus -

the "African" and "Asian" cattle, most notibly the Zebu, which is nearly the only type of cow you find on the african continent

There are HUGE differences between these two species, which we studied in depth. At that time, one of the big "lessons" that we were taught was a fiasco that USAID had been involved with in trying to get traditional African tribes, including the Masai, to try using bos taurus cattle, such as the big black and white, super-milk-producing Holsteins that you see on the commercials for their milk instead of the tiny little zebu cattle.  The zebu were ane are used by these communities as a source of food, fuel, heat, and in desperate times, liquid.  

This folly organized and implemented by USAID at the cost of BILLIONS of dollars was a dismal failure.  The Bos taurus all stopped producing their buckets full of milk, ate too much, the milk that they DID produce seemed to make people ill, they didn't produce the right kind of manure that the communities use for fuel and on and on and on.  All of the cows that were put in place by USAID in this venture got either got sick and died or were completely rejected by the people who tried to use them.  The millions of dollars of infastructure that went along with this fiasco were abandoned or dismantled for other uses.  The people we far worse off when it was over than they started.  It was a giant waste of life, time and dollars.

What the people who implemented all of this had failed to realize was that the zebu cattle and the people who lived with them had a very symbiotic relationship, and bos tarus did not fit into this relationship in any way.  The species were so different that they could not be interchanged.

Now I notice that they have done away with the species "indicus" and all "true cattle, bison, buffalos, etc" are all lumped under "taurus" BUT, "taurus" had always ONLY indicated European cattle that don't have humps.  This EXCLUDES buffalo and bison.

A little link of gobblety-gook where someone is obviously challenging the lumping of "indicus" and "tarus" together:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....02&dopt=Abstract

SO

Let's look a little bit deeper here.

While all milk and milk products are basically avoids for Type O, this is based on the milk coming from a EUROPEAN - based cow aka bos taurus.  HOWEVER, cheese - FRESH CHEESE IN PARTICULAR - that comes from BUFFALO is neutral for type O.  BUFFALO, up until they did away with the species "indicus" in classifying genus "bos", were in the same SPECIES as african cattle - the zebu - which is the breed used by the Masai.

SO

technically, according to OLD species classification, the Masai consume milk from an animal that comes from the same SPECIES as buffalo and bison.

I think that is the real difference in this issue.  Once again, you cannot compare apples to oranges.  In the BTD, there IS  difference between the milk from a cow and the milk from a buffalo.

Secondly, as I said before, we studied a LOT about the African nations and their food consumption, and while, yes, when given the opportunity, they DO consume milk, you have to realize that zebu cattle neither produce the same kind nor the same amounts of milk that Holsteins and Jersey cattle do (the most common European milkers here in the US - Jersey cows are the ones that look like the cow on the Borden products).  Additionally,  they don't produce milk for nearly as LONG as European cattle do.  This was the big reason that USAID started the whole, "we'll get them using bos tarus INSTEAD of bos indicus and then they can REALLY get some bang for their buck with the whole milking thing" idea.

ZEBU CATTLE DON'T PRODUCT THAT MUCH MILK AND MOST OF IT HAS TO BE USED FOR THE CALF.

The Masai and the other tribes that utilize their cattle in this fashion, in reality, get far more of their consistent cattle-based calories from blood consumption.  Unlike milk, that is only around after a cow gives birth AND must be shared by the calf, blood is available year round.  This is a staple of their diet that is derived from their domesticated animals.  Remember that this is used as suppliment to their traditional diet of slaughtered game.  You are right in that, traditionally, very little is consumed in the way of fruits and veggies - only when it is available, and almost NOTHING is consumed in the way of grains, at least traditionally.

I hope that this helps to clear this up.

To recap:

1)  As someone who milked 475 cows per day for one summer, I REALLY know all about raw dairy, and there is NOTHING that you could do to persuade me to consume it.  BLECH.

2)  You cannot compare the consumption of milk by the Masai to the milk that we get here in the US.  Up until they recently lumped "true" cattle into one species, the cows that the Masai have - the Zebu - were classified with buffalo and bison.  Fresh buffalo cheese is one of the few neutral dairy products for Os.  I would assume that both buffalo milk and zebu milk are neutral.

3) the Masai do NOT consume large quantities of milk.  The zebu cows are poor milk producers and do not nurse their calves as long as traditional european cows.  The milking season for the Masai would be short and not nearly as productive as you would imagine.  The milk must be used to grow a calf, as the calf's value would far outweigh the value of the milk they might use.  The Masai's main supplimentation, on a regular-year-'round basis from their cattle is that of blood.

OK.  Now, would you like to hear about my senior thesis on introducing guinea pigs as a supplimentary food source for tribes in Africa, based on the traditional consumption of guinea pigs by the mountain people of the Andes?


Very interesting.  However, I have to disagree with some of what you say.  Studying the people of Africa is not the same as living there.  I was born and raised in Tanzania and have personal knowledge of the Masai people and their diet.  They DO consume a lot of raw milk.   I think it is a bit naughty of you to say so categorically that the Masai do and do not do certain things when all you have done is study them from afar...presumably without ever even meeting one.  That would be like you trying to tell me  you knew more than me about Tanzania just because you'd studied Tanzania in college - when I infact am from there.

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EquiPro
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I will grant you that, and I think that I was clear that what I was writing about was what I was taught.  Since my degree is from  Cornell University, and the professor that I took these classes with had spent much of his time in Africa and was, in fact, very involved with USAID and other oganizations, I took what I was taught as pretty accurate.  Again, I believe that I said at the beginning that things might have changed in the past 20 years.

Regardless of that issue, however, the fact remains that zebu cattle, up until recently, were a seperate species from the cattle that are milked in the US.  Since the testing for the BTD ratings of food was on milk produced in the US, that milk would be from the formerly classified Bos tarus, not Bos Indicus as zebu cattle, along with buffalo, yaks, waterbuffalo, brahman and the like.  Since fresh buffalo cheese is neutral, a better explaination of the Masai being healthy while consuming milk as contrary to the BTD guidelines, would be that zebu cattle and their milk would be classified with buffalo, not with european or american dairy milk.

Finally, I would still be interested in knowing exactly how much of the zebu milk is actually consumed.  Zebu do NOT produce heavy milk loads and do not have long nursing periods for their young.  This is common in most rumenants, as only under americanized situations, is there the availability of the kinds and quantities of food necessary for a lactating mother to produce large quantities of milk without putting herself as risk.  As with most other large mammals, zebu cattle are not perpetually lactating, and, in fact, have large periods of time during the year when they are not pregnant or lactating (usually during the time of the year when food is the most available) so that they can build up stores for the pregnancy and lactation.  

It is somewhat unique to the industrialized and commericalized animal production that animals are manipulated to provide the targeted product year round.  Hens, if not under commercial production, have several extended periods during the year when they do not lay eggs.  Commercial egg-laying operations have all but elminated this natural process through controlled exposure to light and forced moltings.

My point is, where are the Masai getting all of this extra milk?  Zebu cattle are not known for their copious milk product, nor do they milk all year.  Herds would be cyclical, with all females coming into estrus simultaneously, giving birth at the same time, and weaning at roughly the same time.  This is a fact of the natural cycle of the bovine.  How would they be consuming this much milk under these circumstances?

Unless, in the past 20 years, their herding and milking production has changed and their consumption levels have changed with it.  If this is the case, most likely they will not continue to have the kind of health that they have in the past.  If nothing else, it is clear that once traditional food consumptions change, health changes with it.


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semmens
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
Commercial egg-laying operations have all but elminated this natural process through controlled exposure to light and forced moltings.


Some of us do this at home too! The light part anyway...mine get a nice bright light at 3 a.m. these days, but I don't add on at night.

Very interesting, Equipro!

Laura
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Victoria
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thank you EquiPro.  This is very informative.  



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Let me not pass you by in quest
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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And if you were to force molt your hens, by withholding food and water from them for several days before molting season (some commercial productions do this for a week or two at a time) you could also avoid that pesky drop in production during molting season (the word, "pesky" should be read with EXTREME sarcasm).

I'm wondering if a lot of AfricanTypeO's thoughts are trying to put the connection between Masai health, and milk consumption as one of consuming the dairy raw.  If so, I would hope that someone here (who is far better with the dadamo search engine) could put up the link to the raw dairy discussions that we have had on this forum.  This might give some more insight and thoughts on the who issue of raw dairy.


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Lola
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Rachel,
I believe that thread is lost, unless it was a sticky one.....
couldn t find it.


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Victoria
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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If the Masai people are indeed drinking a large quantity of milk now, it sounds as if they have found a way to incorporate the American/European type milking practices onto their own cattle, OR have found a strain of high-yield milkers that will survive in their environment.

It makes sense to me that the native cattle were in balance with the native people.  If this fact has changed drastically, it may take a couple of generations before the health decline shows itself.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro
I will grant you that, and I think that I was clear that what I was writing about was what I was taught.  Since my degree is from  Cornell University, and the professor that I took these classes with had spent much of his time in Africa and was, in fact, very involved with USAID and other oganizations, I took what I was taught as pretty accurate.  Again, I believe that I said at the beginning that things might have changed in the past 20 years.

Regardless of that issue, however, the fact remains that zebu cattle, up until recently, were a seperate species from the cattle that are milked in the US.  Since the testing for the BTD ratings of food was on milk produced in the US, that milk would be from the formerly classified Bos tarus, not Bos Indicus as zebu cattle, along with buffalo, yaks, waterbuffalo, brahman and the like.  Since fresh buffalo cheese is neutral, a better explaination of the Masai being healthy while consuming milk as contrary to the BTD guidelines, would be that zebu cattle and their milk would be classified with buffalo, not with european or american dairy milk.

Finally, I would still be interested in knowing exactly how much of the zebu milk is actually consumed.  Zebu do NOT produce heavy milk loads and do not have long nursing periods for their young.  This is common in most rumenants, as only under americanized situations, is there the availability of the kinds and quantities of food necessary for a lactating mother to produce large quantities of milk without putting herself as risk.  As with most other large mammals, zebu cattle are not perpetually lactating, and, in fact, have large periods of time during the year when they are not pregnant or lactating (usually during the time of the year when food is the most available) so that they can build up stores for the pregnancy and lactation.  

It is somewhat unique to the industrialized and commericalized animal production that animals are manipulated to provide the targeted product year round.  Hens, if not under commercial production, have several extended periods during the year when they do not lay eggs.  Commercial egg-laying operations have all but elminated this natural process through controlled exposure to light and forced moltings.

My point is, where are the Masai getting all of this extra milk?  Zebu cattle are not known for their copious milk product, nor do they milk all year.  Herds would be cyclical, with all females coming into estrus simultaneously, giving birth at the same time, and weaning at roughly the same time.  This is a fact of the natural cycle of the bovine.  How would they be consuming this much milk under these circumstances?

Unless, in the past 20 years, their herding and milking production has changed and their consumption levels have changed with it.  If this is the case, most likely they will not continue to have the kind of health that they have in the past.  If nothing else, it is clear that once traditional food consumptions change, health changes with it.


The Masai people I know seem to have access to milk year-round - I'll ask around and find out how and why.

I was not aware that Cornell was noted for it's African history department
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Actually, before USAID decided to ship Bos taurus over to africa (along with the milking parlors, etc.), they spent a lot of time trying to up the milk production is zebu.  It was a no go.  At the time that I was studying this, giving cows bovine growth hormone to up the quantities of milk production and the lactation duration was the big thing.  This was the whole issue with zebu cows:  they just don't make much milk and they don't lactate for extended periods and nothing seemed to change that part.  

So instead of getting the zebu to become produce milk more like Bos taurus -which they had been unsuccessful in doing, they just shipped the American cows and methods over there in one giant sweep.  As I said, the devestation was huge.  I wish that I could remember the specifics, but I seem to remember that nearly all the cattle died, and the people who tried to use them had their whole lives thrown into caos.  One of the huge contributions that cattle make to these people is in their manure.  It is burned for fuel, used for construction and used in many other essential ways.  The manure that the Holsteins made was completely useless for these things.  People couldn't cook their food, couldn't repair their homes, etc.  It was an huge, unmitigated disaster AND one that you never heard about because it was so costly and the results were so poor.

This project alone (the replacement of bos indicus with Bos tarus to suppliment the animal protein supply) was what got me thinking about the use of guinea pigs.  Another disasterous project put out by USAID was to have the native people grow rabbits to suppliment them with meat and with fur for sale and trade.  It failed miserably because they people implementing it did not realize that the types of rabbits that one would eat and skin could not live in the conditions in those areas.  The heat and the humidity caused rabbit death, disease and disaster.   That's when I started to look at guinea pigs.

Anyway, to get back to the original issue, there was never any luck in getting the milk production of the zebu up past a certain point, which was far short of Bos tarus production, and believe me when I tell you that they tried everything.  Lots of tests and papers on this particular project on my part.


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EquiPro
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Sam Dan
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO


The Masai people I know seem to have access to milk year-round - I'll ask around and find out how and why.

I was not aware that Cornell was noted for it's African history department


Don't know about African History, but is considered to have the top Animal Science programs in the entire world.  At least at that time. It was, then, one of the few universities where you could major in International Development in Animal Science, which was my final major and which basically covered exactly what we are talking about.  While we also studied South American and touched a bit on Eurasia, the focus of our studies was Africa and how animal science could help, rather than hinder, development and health there.

Getting back to your original issue, however, I still maintain that, regardless of the quantity of the Masai dairy intake (which I still find hard to believe is that high as compared to the traditional consumption of game), the reason that they are not deleteriously affected by their milk consumption is because the zebu is not the same species as the dairy cow, but rather is the same species as the buffalo (regardless fo the recent changes in classification), and as such,  the zebu milk that they consume is not an avoid.


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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:52pm
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AfricanTypeO
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Things are a-changing in Africa all the time.  Until very recently all of our meat was grass-fed, all of our eggs and poultry were free-range.  All of our fruit and vegetables were organic.  When we consumed dairy, that was grass-fed and raw too for the most part.  No wonder we were so healthy!  But now that our countries in Africa are becoming more "civilized" we now have GMO foods, refined grains, feedlot meats, chicken that is chock full of hormones and antibiotics.   Soon we will all be struck with "Western" health issues.

It is interesting to note that many of the health problems that afflict African-Americans - including hypertension and diabetes actually do not affect many African nationals.  But now that we AFricans are starting to stray from our traditional diets; I am sure that soon we will have just as many health problems as African-Americans.  And they call this modernization!
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AfricanTypeO
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This is interesting....

http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth3.htm


A reduction of animal fat and an increase of vegetable fat in the diet is said to lower the blood cholesterol. This is correct, but the effect of such dietary changes is very small. Ramsay and Jackson (37) reviewed 16 trials using diet as intervention. They concluded that the so-called step-I diet, which is similar to the dietary advices that are given nationwise by the health authorities in many countries, lower the serum cholesterol by 0 to 4% only. There are more effective diets, but they are unpalatable to most People.

Studies of African tribes have shown that intakes of enormous amounts of animal fat not necessarily raises blood cholesterol; on the contrary it may be very low. Samburu people, for instance, eat about a pound of meat and drink almost two gallons of raw milk each day during most of the year. Milk from the African Zebu cattle is much fatter than cow's milk, which means that the Samburus consume more than twice the amount of animal fat than the average American, and yet their cholesterol is much lower, about 170 mg/dl (3.

According to the view of the Masai people in Kenya, vegetables and fibers are food for cows. They themselves drink half a gallon of Zebu milk each day and their parties are sheer orgies of meat. On such occasions several pounds of meat per person is not unusual. In spite of that the cholesterol of the Masai tribesmen is among the lowest ever measured in the world, about fifty percent of the value of the average American (39).

Shepherds in Somalia eat almost nothing but milk from their camels. About a gallon and a half a day is normal, which amounts to almost one pound of butter fat, because camel's milk is much fatter than cow's milk. But although more than sixty percent of their energy consumption comes from animal fat, their mean cholesterol is only about 150 mg/dl, far lower than in most Western people (40).

Proponents of the diet-heart idea say that these African tribesmen are accustomed to their diet and that their organisms have inherited a cleverness to metabolize cholesterol. However, a study of Masai people who had lived for a long time in the Nairobi metropolis showed this to be wrong (41). If the low cholesterol of the Masai tribesmen was inherited it should have been even lower in Nairobi, because here their diet with all certainty included less animal fat than the diet of the Masai tribesmen. But the mean cholesterol level in twenty six males in Nairobi was twenty-five percent higher than that of their cattle-breeding colleagues in the countryside.

And there is more evidence. Although it is possible to change blood cholesterol a little in laboratory experiments and clinical trials by dieting, it is impossible to find any relationship between the make up of the diet and the blood cholesterol of individuals who are not participating in a medical experiment. In other words, individuals who live as usual and eat their food without listening to doctors or dieticians show no connection between what they eat and the level of their blood cholesterol.

If the diet-heart idea were correct individuals who eat great amounts of animal fat would have higher cholesterol than those who eat small amounts; and individuals who eat small amounts of vegetable fat should have higher cholesterol than those who eat great amounts. If not, there is no reason to meddle with people's diet.
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Peppermint Twist
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I don't care who is from where or what culture does what, here is the bottom line:

Cow's milk is for baby cows.

Us humans don't even drink human milk once we are weaned, why on earth do we think it is normal to drink the milk that nature so exquisitely designed for the very young of another species?  WEIRDNESS!

Althoooough...I did enjoy that vanilla Haagan Daaz on Thanksgiving...hey, I didn't say it didn't taste good in certain ice cream formats, or certain cheese formats...just that it truly is a bizarre ingredient for human beings to consume, what with it being specifically designed by nature for baby cows.  Again, us continuing to drink human breast milk past infancy, and to make it into ice creams and cheeses would be a far more natural thing to do, yet I'll bet you all had a reaction of:  eeeeew.  And why did you have that reaction?  Because consuming the milk of any animal, even our own species, is not normal when one is not a baby, let alone not a baby of that particular species!*

* Type B's, I don't know where the above post leaves you, but you tend to go your own way anyway, so you may have a special pass to drink cow's milk if you really must.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:56pm
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AfricanTypeO
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And I believe the following is probably true:

http://www.femsinspace.com/ancestors.htm

"today's Masai of East Africa who drink 3 to 5 quarts of cow's milk daily, but during the dry season of 4 to 5 months, ingest fresh cow blood, mixed (balanced) with milk."

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:55pm
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Edna
I don't care who is from where or what culture does what, here is the bottom line:

Cow's milk is for baby cows.

Us humans don't even drink human milk once we are weaned, why on earth do we think it is normal to drink the milk that nature so exquisitely designed for the very young of another species?  WEIRDNESS!

Althoooough...I did enjoy that vanilla Haagan Daaz on Thanksgiving...hey, I didn't say it didn't taste good in certain ice cream formats, or certain cheese formats...just that it truly is a bizarre ingredient for human beings to consume, what with it being specifically designed by nature for baby cows.  Again, us continuing to drink human breast milk past infancy, and to make it into ice creams and cheeses would be a far more natural thing to do, yet I'll bet you all had a reaction of:  eeeeew.  And why did you have that reaction?  Because consuming the milk of any animal, even our own species, is not normal when one is not a baby, let alone not a baby of that particular species!*

* Type B's, I don't know where the above post leaves you, but you tend to go your own way anyway, so you may have a special pass to drink cow's milk if you really must.


Yours is a popular argument but frankly I think that the milk-drinking African tribes have something to teach us all.  They are so much healthier than most Westerners

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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/lewis/lewten74.htm


Among the Masai, who never allow milk to be boiled, it is considered a great offense to drink milk and eat meat at the same time; so for ten days the Masai lives exclusively on milk and for ten days exclusively on meat. So great is the aversion to bringing the two foods together that they take a strong emetic before changing from one food to the other.
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 6:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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BTW, AfricanType O, welcome.  I have been remiss from the boards lately because of home issues, so you probably don't "know" me well.  I am also a blogger who needs to blog again soon (see Rachel).

You will find that I am one of the ones who is always screaming about just what you have posted.  I have said for years that the whole consumption of cholesterol was not linked to cholesterol levels of the blood and, further, that the "your cholesterol must be under 200" was a lie conconted by the pharmaceutical companies to get 1/2 of the population on their statin-lowering drugs.

Further, I have maintained that the best way for a type O to feel good, lose weight and be BTD compliant is to regularly eat fat, which includes cholesterol.  I believe that cholesterol is necessary for good skin, good brain health, and good health overall.

You will never find me eating meat without some fat involved.  I hate dry, lean meat.  I have found, over and over, that more often than not, Types O are simply this way.

There is a lot more about this, and maybe I'll blog on it.  Regardless, you will find many here who are type O, who are fat-eaters, fat-lovers (at least where their food is concerned) ,and who, like me, think that they whole "fat/cholesterol/heart-disease" issue is a bunch of hooey.

IMHO, it is the corn starch, the modified wheat, they corn syrup and the over-consumption of grain and grain-derivatives that is the cause of heart issues, not fat.  At least not for Type O.


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EquiPro
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Sam Dan
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO


Yours is a popular argument but frankly I think that the milk-drinking African tribes have something to teach us all.  They are so much healthier than most Westerners



yes, BUT, we can't get buffalo milk here.  Not readily, anyway.  Once again, I don't think that you can compare the milk of Bos tarus to the milk of Bos indicus where the BTD is concerned.






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AfricanTypeO
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Quoted from EquiPro
BTW, AfricanType O, welcome.  I have been remiss from the boards lately because of home issues, so you probably don't "know" me well.  I am also a blogger who needs to blog again soon (see Rachel).

You will find that I am one of the ones who is always screaming about just what you have posted.  I have said for years that the whole consumption of cholesterol was not linked to cholesterol levels of the blood and, further, that the "your cholesterol must be under 200" was a lie conconted by the pharmaceutical companies to get 1/2 of the population on their statin-lowering drugs.

Further, I have maintained that the best way for a type O to feel good, lose weight and be BTD compliant is to regularly eat fat, which includes cholesterol.  I believe that cholesterol is necessary for good skin, good brain health, and good health overall.

You will never find me eating meat without some fat involved.  I hate dry, lean meat.  I have found, over and over, that more often than not, Types O are simply this way.

There is a lot more about this, and maybe I'll blog on it.  Regardless, you will find many here who are type O, who are fat-eaters, fat-lovers (at least where their food is concerned) ,and who, like me, think that they whole "fat/cholesterol/heart-disease" issue is a bunch of hooey.

IMHO, it is the corn starch, the modified wheat, they corn syrup and the over-consumption of grain and grain-derivatives that is the cause of heart issues, not fat.  At least not for Type O.




Thanks for the welcome.  I'm totally with you about eating fat.  And I agree that its the corn syrup and so on that is the real problem behind heart issues.   Several years ago I ate a diet that consisted of brown rice, very small amounts of fish and lots of fruit and wholegrain cereal.  I'd been led to believe this was healthy!!  When I was eating like that, my cholesterol was ok but it could have been better.  Since I started eating in a very Paleo way - with lots of grass-fed red meats and lots of green vegetables forming the base of my diet; my total cholesterol is 150, my HDL is up at 91, my bad cholesterols are really low - and I've achieved this by eating the so-called forbidden fats.
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AfricanTypeO
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Quoted from EquiPro


yes, BUT, we can't get buffalo milk here.  Not readily, anyway.  Once again, I don't think that you can compare the milk of Bos tarus to the milk of Bos indicus where the BTD is concerned.




I've actually been trying to buy buffalo milk here in America and so far I have had no luck.  I may be forced to open my own buffalo farm,
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resting
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Sam Dan
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hi folks,

thanks EP for these great insights .... when in university, I had many friends whose mother-tongue was French.  They took a course specifically in the French language, because they presumed the course would be a cinch.  Most failed the course miserably.  So from this, I have learned that there are a vast amounts of information locals only presume they know.  This happens everywhere ... not just in Tanzania.

the robust health of the Masai could as well come from their up-down-up native-dancing (similar to rebounding).  Health is multi-faceted - diet is only one of these facets.  Exercise, lack-of-stress, genetics, exposure to toxins, exposure to natural energies + forces, are only some of the factors contributing to health.

there is much to learn .... for every one of us!

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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This may sound weird, but Type Os are a tiny bit dog-like.  When I used to feed my dog commercial dry dog food that contained grains, she used to get bloated and fat and she would overeat - its like she was addicted to the dry food.  When I put her on  meat diet with small servings of veggies, fruits and eggs, she became lean and mean (well not mean just lean) and her elimination is perfect.  When I eat like her - meat, veggies, fruits - I feel great, look good and have very healthy elimination.  So I'm very much like a dog.
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
hi folks,

thanks EP for these great insights .... when in university, I had many friends whose mother-tongue was French.  They took a course specifically in the French language, because they presumed the course would be a cinch.  Most failed the course miserably.  So from this, I have learned that there are a vast amounts of information locals only presume they know.  This happens everywhere ... not just in Tanzania.


John


So if somebody who studied America Studies at university of Tanzania (and never set foot in the USA) told you they knew more about the USA than you do - you'd believe them, right?



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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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I wish you luck with that.  Buffalo might not even do it, realisitically.  It might HAVE to be zebu milk.  Start looking around for some zebu cows.  I bet you can get a few somewhere.  And certainly you could have them artificially inseminated.  Looks like a new business for an ambitious entrepreneur.

Just make sure that if you did this, that you are a decendent of the milk-drinking tribes, or it might not work for you....


FRESH START TODAY!!!
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+


the robust health of the Masai could as well come from their up-down-up native-dancing (similar to rebounding).  



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AfricanTypeO
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Quoted from EquiPro
I wish you luck with that.  Buffalo might not even do it, realisitically.  It might HAVE to be zebu milk.  Start looking around for some zebu cows.  I bet you can get a few somewhere.  And certainly you could have them artificially inseminated.  Looks like a new business for an ambitious entrepreneur.

Just make sure that if you did this, that you are a decendent of the milk-drinking tribes, or it might not work for you....


I sincerely doubt there are any zebu cows to be milked in the US.

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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Here's a pair, just waiting for you!

http://agads.net/page-6230.html

Wow!  I can even buy one right here in San Antonio!

http://agads.net/page-7619.html


FRESH START TODAY!!!
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Dairy quiz

1. In which country do people consume the most water buffalo milk?

(a) China (b) India (c) Argentina (d) Zimbabwe

2. What is the most popular specialized dairy breed in the world?

(a) Brown Swiss (b) Holstein (c) Jersey (d) Zebu

3. Which country produces the most cow milk in the world?

(a) India (b) United States (c) Australia (d) Netherlands

4. Which country consumes the most cow milk per capita in the world?

(a) Germany (b) Australia (c) Finland (d) United States

More next issue. (Answers at right)

Source: The Progressive Dairyman. September 2005

1. (b) Of all the milk produced in the world, 10 percent comes from water buffalo. India produces and consumes most of the water buffalo milk

2. (b) The Holstein cow originated from completely black and solid white animals kept by migrant European tribes who settled about 2,000 years ago in what is now the Netherlands. For many years, people selected animals that made the best use of the abundant grass, eventually developing an efficient, high-producing black-and-white dairy breed. The first Holstein cow arrived in the United States in 1852. Now they are on every continent and in almost every country. Jersey cows are the second-most popular specialized dairy breed in the world. India has the highest number of milk cows _ about 80 million; most of them are unspecialized breeds. In contrast, the United States has about 9 million milk cows.

3. (b) The United States produced 76.37 million metric tons of milk in 2000. That is about 20 percent of the milk produced in major dairy countries of the world.

4. (c) People from Finland consume more than four 8-ounce glasses of milk a day. People in the United States consume nearly three 8-ounce glasses of milk a day. The world's average milk consumption is about one 8-ounce glass of milk per day.


FRESH START TODAY!!!
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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This is a VERY interesting study with regards to this thread.  The interesting part starts on page 7.  It just supports the fact that zebu are not great in the milk producing dept, either in quantity or in length of milking time.

http://www.smallholderdairy.or.....enya%206%2041-66.pdf


the average age (44 months) at the time of the first calving (therefore first milk production) for zebu cattle is the oldest of all included in the study (as compared to 33 months for the youngest - dairy cows, of course).  That means that the farmer who keeps a zebu heifer for milk production has a 4-year investment in that heifer before it ever provides them with milk.


FRESH START TODAY!!!

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:34pm
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro
Here's a pair, just waiting for you!

http://agads.net/page-6230.html

Wow!  I can even buy one right here in San Antonio!

http://agads.net/page-7619.html


Thanks.  I just made an  offer on the pair in Wisconsin.










































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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro
This is a VERY interesting study with regards to this thread.  The interesting part starts on page 7.  It just supports the fact that zebu are not great in the milk producing dept, either in quantity or in length of milking time.

http://www.smallholderdairy.or.....enya%206%2041-66.pdf


the average age (44 months) at the time of the first calving (therefore first milk production) for zebu cattle is the oldest of all included in the study (as compared to 33 months for the youngest - dairy cows, of course).  That means that the farmer who keeps a zebu heifer for milk production has a 4-year investment in that heifer before it ever provides them with milk.




The animals aren't all the same age, now are they?!  The Masai people generally have LOTS of cattle, not just one..... so I don't really get your point.....
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resting
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

probable non-sec
Sam Dan
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Hi AfricanType0,

had to chuckle a bit because I am Canadian .... and many of us DO indeed presume that we do know more about the US than most Americans ..... of course, we all hide when a Yank points out all kinds of local info that we never knew.

I had this classmate who now teaches political science at Harvard.  His specialty is the Russian army .,... and I know he learned to speak Russian years before his first visit.  So, what's a kid from Northern Ontario, Canada know about Russia.  Ask Brezhnev or Yeltsin?

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO


So if somebody who studied America Studies at university of Tanzania (and never set foot in the USA) told you they knew more about the USA than you do - you'd believe them, right?





Actually, they very well might know more than me.  I only have my own experience to build on, they have the experiences of their teachers and their books, which might encompass far more than my limited experience.  For instance, if they studied life in Texas, overall, they might be able to tell me FAR more about life in Texas than what I have experienced myself.  They might know more facts and have read more studies.  Just because they hadn't experienced it for themselves doesn't mean that I would immediately dismiss them outright.  There are lots of different types of knowledge.  

For example, AfricanTypeO, did you know that the zebu is the original type of cow herded by the Masai and that the zebu, until recently was not the same species (species here, not breed - while breeds of the same species have different characterisitcs, they are united by common genetic markers.  Species, however, can be world apart from each other) as the cow that produces the milk that we drink here?

While I have never set foot in Africa, I knew and had studied this is quite detail.  Do I know more than you about this.  Yes, on certain levels I do.  Do have more experience than you in this?  Yes.  On certain levels I do.  HOWEVER, you know more than I in some ways because you have been there and I haven't.  We each bring something to the table, and it takes all of our knowledge and much more to see the big picture.




FRESH START TODAY!!!
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
Hi AfricanType0,

had to chuckle a bit because I am Canadian .... and many of us DO indeed presume that we do know more about the US than most Americans ..... of course, we all hide when a Yank points out all kinds of local info that we never knew.


I honestly do not believe that you can truly know a place or a people unless you have lived in that place or with those people.   In England, you get writers who specialize in writing about the Royal Family and who would call themselves specialists when it comes to the Royals.  However, they can never truly know the Royal family because they are not a part of it.....
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro


Actually, they very well might know more than me.  I only have my own experience to build on, they have the experiences of their teachers and their books, which might encompass far more than my limited experience.  For instance, if they studied life in Texas, overall, they might be able to tell me FAR more about life in Texas than what I have experienced myself.  They might know more facts and have read more studies.  Just because they hadn't experienced it for themselves doesn't mean that I would immediately dismiss them outright.  There are lots of different types of knowledge.  

For example, AfricanTypeO, did you know that the zebu is the original type of cow herded by the Masai and that the zebu, until recently was not the same species (species here, not breed - while breeds of the same species have different characterisitcs, they are united by common genetic markers.  Species, however, can be world apart from each other) as the cow that produces the milk that we drink here?

While I have never set foot in Africa, I knew and had studied this is quite detail.  Do I know more than you about this.  Yes, on certain levels I do.  Do have more experience than you in this?  Yes.  On certain levels I do.  HOWEVER, you know more than I in some ways because you have been there and I haven't.  We each bring something to the table, and it takes all of our knowledge and much more to see the big picture.






To us (Africans) it is a COW.  While I was in Africa the animals that you Westerners call zebus were what we called cows.   And to be honest I think most of you guys would laugh your asses off if some Masai who had studied American Studies  (but never been to America) pitched up iin the US, unable to even speak English properly -  and claimed to be an expert on life in America.  

To me this is part of the arrogance of Western people... the same mentality of the people who went to Africa and India as Colonialists and as missionaries "we know you people and what's best for you better than you know yourselves......"

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:49pm
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 7:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro


 HOWEVER, you know more than I in some ways because you have been there and I haven't.  





No, not because I've been to Africa: I know more than you because I was born there, raised there and most importantly - because I'm an African.
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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But because you are African, does that mean that you know more than me about cattle?  I mean, that's not automatically something that you would know, just because you are African, is it?

That's all that I am saying.  I know CATTLE, I also know about cattle in Africa, only because this is what I studied.  Mostly I know about cattle. And milk production.   And as it applies to the BTD, my thought is that all this has less to do with the fact that the milk-drinking tribes in Africa are consuming the milk raw than with the fact that the cattle that are being milked are more closely related to buffalo than to dairy cows.

Also, just because I was born and raised in America and because I have actually visited and seen, let's say, the people who live in NYC and ridden the subway a few times, doesn't make me an expert on life in NYC. I've visited there regularly, but I can't, by any stretch of the imagination, hold myself out as a real New Yorker.

Is your knowledge of how milk is consumed by the Masai, how much they consume, how the milk is produced, how much is consumed when and all of that due to the fact that you have lived with the Masai and have lived as they live, or have you visited them on occassion and the rest is based on what you have researched and read?  If it is the latter, then what makes you more knowledgeable about this subject than me?  If you have lived with them, lived as they lived, drank the milk each of the 10 days, drank the blood, etc, then you really are an expert and can downplay what I know.  However if you have just visited the milk-drinking tribes, then your knowledge might NOT be as strong as mine.  Being African no more makes you an expert on this, than being an American makes me an expert on life as a native New Yorker.


FRESH START TODAY!!!

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:24pm
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from EquiPro
But because you are African, does make you know more than me about cattle, does it?  I mean, that's not automatically something that you would know, just because you are African, is it?

That's all that I am saying.  I know CATTLE, I also know about cattle in Africa, only because this is what I studied.  Mostly I know about cattle. And milk production.   And as it applies to the BTD, my thought is that all this has less to do with the fact that the milk-drinking tribes in Africa are consuming the milk raw than with the fact that the cattle that are being milked are more closely related to buffalo than to dairy cows.



I do not disagree with you at all about our cows being closer to buffalo than to American dairy cows!  However, I do disagree with your claim that Masai people dont' actually drink that much milk and don't drink it year-round.  So far you've not provided any material to back up your claims.
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EquiPro
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Well, unfortunately, those handouts, that test material and those lecture notes are long gone.  Unless things have changed in the past 20 years, and how could they have, unless it was because of westernization, then this is what I remember from my studies.  And, again, as I stated at the beginning of this, I could be wrong.  All I know is that I spent 2 years studying these cattle and these types of agricultures, and that is what I remember.


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jayney-O
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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fascinating thread! I really appreciate reading it. African typeO thanks for giving us a priceless native perspective!
Did you really buy those zebu?

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:50pm
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 8:56pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from jayney-O
fascinating thread! I really appreciate reading it. African typeO thanks for giving us a priceless native perspective!
Did you really buy those zebu?


Hi!  No I was joking about buying the zebu.  I live in an apartment in New York City with no backyard.  Imagine if I moved a couple of zebu in with me, hehe!



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AfricanTypeO
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Slightly offtopic but a lot of Africans actually drink camel milk.  I wonder if that's an Avoid or a Neutral!!
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AfricanTypeO
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Hehe, just found this:


http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000275/index.html

The next thing: camel milk
FAO sees bright prospects for camel milk
18 April 2006, Rome - In Tunisia, people will travel hundreds of kilometres to get hold of some. Herdswomen from Ethiopia and Somalia think nothing of riding a train for 12 hours to sell it in Djibouti, where prices are high. In N’Djamena, Chad, milk bars are mushrooming all over town.

Half way round the globe people consider it a powerful tonic against many diseases. The Gulf Arabs believe it is an aphrodisiac.

From the Western Sahara to Mongolia demand is booming for camel milk. But there just isn’t enough to go round. State-of-the art camel rearing is rudimentary, and much of the 5.4 million tonnes of milk produced every year by the world population of some 20 million camels is guzzled by young camels themselves.

The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) thus sees bright prospects for camel dairy products, which could not only provide more food to people in arid and semi-arid areas, but also give nomadic herders a rich source of income.

FAO is hoping financing will come forward from donors and investors to develop the sector not only at local level but help camel milk move into lucrative markets in the Middle East and the West.

“The potential is massive,” says FAO’s Dairy and Meat expert Anthony Bennett. “Milk is money”.

Nutrition

To devotees, camel milk is pure nectar. While slightly saltier than cows’ milk, it is very good for you. After all, nature designed it to help baby camels grow up in some of the world’s roughest environments – deserts and steppes. That helps explain why it is three times as rich in Vitamin C as cow’s milk.

In Russia, Kazakhstan and India doctors often prescribe it to convalescing patients while in Africa it may be recommended for people living with AIDS.

Somalis are gluttons for the stuff and firmly believe in the milk’s medicinal value. Aside from Vitamin C, it is known to be rich in iron, unsaturated fatty acids and B vitamins.

Camel Dairy Milk Ltd of Nanyuki, Kenya is planning, in partnership with the Kenya Medical Research Institute (KEMRI), to carry out research into the role claimed for camel milk in reducing diabetes and coronary heart disease.

Such features account for the milk’s appeal not only to young camels and their nomad owners but to an estimated 200 million potential customers in the Arab world – and millions more in Africa, Europe and the Americas.

Getting over the humps

Tapping the market for camel milk, however, involves resolving a series of humps in production, manufacturing and marketing. One problem lies in the milk itself, which has so far not proved to be compatible with the UHT (Ultra High Temperature) treatment needed to make it long-lasting. But the main challenge stems from the fact that the producers involved are, overwhelmingly, nomads.

Imagine a tomato cannery whose suppliers regularly all disappear overnight – taking their tomatoes with them. That’s the kind of problem you need to solve if you want to stay in the camel milk business.

(Nomads of course do not wander about the desert for pleasure. They move in search of pasture according to the seasons–and can survive for up to a month in the desert on nothing but ... camel milk.)

Another problem is that nomad camel herders are often reticent to sell their spare milk, which tradition reserves for honoured guests and the poor. It has been noted, however, that such reticence can be dispelled by the offer of a good price.

One-leg stand

To milk a camel in Sudan, approach the animal from the right. Stand on your right leg. Bend your left leg and place a gourd or other recipient on it. A camel udder has four teats. Seize the nearest two and squeeze. The others are for the calf to feed from. Repeat twice a day.

Having the fine balance of a Yoga master isn’t enough, however. Camels can be pretty stubborn, and if your animal dislikes you she won’t hear of being milked. Unlike cows, which store all their milk in their udders, camels keep theirs further up their bodies.

Also essential is the presence of the mother’s calf. She-camels will feed only their own calves, responding to their specific smell. When a calf dies, crafty herders trick mothers at milking time by presenting them with a dummy covered in camel calfskin.

The bottom line here is that camel milk production is generally a low-tech business, which in turn explains why a meagre five litres a day is considered a decent yield.

“No one’s suggesting intensive camel dairy farming,” says Bennett, “but just with improved feed, husbandry and veterinary care daily yields could rise to 20 litres.” Since fresh camel milk fetches roughly a dollar a litre on African markets that would mean serious money for nomads herders who now have few other sources of revenue. A world market worth 10 billion dollars would be entirely within the realm of possibility.

Sons of the clouds

That camel constraints can be overcome is eloquently demonstrated by a British-born engineering graduate, Nancy Abeiderahmanne, who has been operating a successful camel dairy in Mauritania for more than 15 years.

Ms Abeiderahmanne, whose Tiviski (Mauritanian for “springtime”) company also processes cow and goat milk, currently has some 800 camel herders supplying her on daily basis. She collects the fresh milk from up to 80 kilometres from her base, Nouakchott, and hauls it back to her dairy for pasteurization in a refrigerated truck.

The herders, while still nomads (we are sons of the clouds and where the clouds go we must follow), have learned it makes business sense to leave their nursing camels behind when they move up north. This ensures a welcome measure of continuity in Tiviski’s supplies.

The right stuff

Another major challenge for Ms Abeiderahmanne was that although camel milk keeps longer than cow’s, it still has a limited shelf life. Even worse, production is highest just at the time demand is lowest – in the winter months.

The obvious solution was to turn surplus milk into longer-lived cheese. But there were problems in getting it to harden.

In 1992, Ms Abeiderahmanne, with FAO’s help, found the answer. FAO, which had developed the technology to make camel cheese, arranged for a French expert, J.P. Ramet, to go to Nouakchott and show her how to use a special enzyme to give her products the right consistency.

The result was a soft cheese with a white crust which she called “Caravane”. It was quickly dubbed Camelbert.

In 1993, Ms Abeiderrahmane deservedly received the coveted Rolex business enterprise award for her breakthrough. Tougher, however, turned out to be the question of getting permission to export Camelbert.

Khoormog

An alternative way of storing camel milk in places lacking electricity, let alone refrigerators, was found centuries ago in the steppes of Kazakhstan and Mongolia, where herders keep two-humped Bactrian camels.

Nomads there process the fresh produce into fermented milk, Shubat, a local delicacy which is known in nearby Mongolia as Khoormog. In Kazakhstan’s old capital of Almaty, a modern plant produces Kourt, a cheese so hard that most people prefer to grate it. The facility also manufactures camel milk sweets.

Some experts would like to see Kazakhstan’s simple, traditional techniques exported. But the moot question remains: will Beduin go for Khoormog?

Sticky fingers

An easier sell would appear to be the low-fat, camel milk chocolate, which a Vienna-based chocolatier, Johann Georg Hochleitner intends to launch this autumn. With funding from the Abu Dhabi royal family, his company plans to make the chocolate in Austria from powdered camel milk produced at Al Ain in the United Arab Emirates, then ship 50 tons back to the Gulf each month.

“It sounds crazy but it’s a huge project. There’s a potential market of 200 million in the Arab world,” says Hochleitner.

And if you get sticky fingers from Al Nassma – the chocolate’s brand name – you can always wash your hands with camel milk soap produced by the Oasis Camel Dairy of Sonora, California, where camels were introduced as pack animals in the 19th Century.

As the Ahaggar nomads of Algeria say, “Water is the soul. Milk is life”. And money too of course.
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apositive
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Ee Dan
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO
Imagine if I moved a couple of zebu in with me, hehe!

Oh, do it!  Especially if you are in a third floor walk-up.  I can see you and the zebu trekking up and down several flights of stairs!



INTJ
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AfricanTypeO
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Quoted from apositive

Oh, do it!  Especially if you are in a third floor walk-up.  I can see you and the zebu trekking up and down several flights of stairs!



One of my neighbors keeps a huge pig in her apartment and takes it out on a leash and then to the dog park.  So having zebu is only a little weirder.  

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GT1; L (a-b-); (se); PROP-T; NN
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having such a vast variety of superbeneficials, beneficials, and neutrals!!!

I truly don t waste much time wondering if camel, or raw zebu milk agrees with me!!!

I salute your inquisitive minds! lol


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Whimsical
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HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
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AfricanTypeO, are you igbogirl/Red Meat Eater who used to be on the boards?  I recall that she also lived in NYC.


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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AfricanTypeO
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Quoted from lola
having such a vast variety of superbeneficials, beneficials, and neutrals!!!

I truly don t waste much time wondering if camel, or raw zebu milk agrees with me!!!

I salute your inquisitive minds! lol


I wouldn't mind sitting down with a nice creamy camel milk yogurt right now
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AfricanTypeO
Thursday, November 30, 2006, 11:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Whimsical
AfricanTypeO, are you igbogirl/Red Meat Eater who used to be on the boards?  I recall that she also lived in NYC.



i would think there are several igbos in NYC.  But as far as I know they are all from West Africa.  Tanzania is in East Africa.
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Whimsical
Friday, December 1, 2006, 12:26am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO

i would think there are several igbos in NYC.  But as far as I know they are all from West Africa.  Tanzania is in East Africa.


I don't remember where she was from in Africa - your style just reminded me of her and she went through 1 or 2 name changes so I thought you might be her with a new name!  


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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AfricanTypeO
Friday, December 1, 2006, 12:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Whimsical, I just looked up Igbo on Wikipedia.  If you have a chance, please read the first paragraph of the link I've posted: specifically the section in BOLD.  Isn't Wikipedia meant to be neutral and unbiased??This is hilarious!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igbo_people

The Igbo, sometimes (especially formerly) referred to as Ibo, are one of the largest single ethnicities in Africa. They are one of the brightest people on earth, with the genetic citizens of Owere-Umuahia axis being the most intelligent of all Igbo. Most Igbo speakers are based in southern Nigeria, where they constitute about 17% of the population; they can also be found in significant numbers in Cameroon and Equatorial Guinea. Their language is also called Igbo.

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Alan_Goldenberg  -  Friday, December 1, 2006, 12:42am
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Red Meat Eater
Friday, December 1, 2006, 3:20am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 806
It's the former Igbogirl here.  I still lurk from time to time.  I am trying to stick to the BTD but I keep giving in to temptations. Will be back soon - in the process of moving to Germany.  Any Germn BTDers here?  I want to insert a smiley where I'd be waving hi to you but I cannot find it.  Cheers.


Kombu noodles are DELICIOUS (and wheat-free)
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Lola
Friday, December 1, 2006, 4:28am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1; L (a-b-); (se); PROP-T; NN
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there are quite a few german btdters here.....
try the international section.......
there s a german thread there.......


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Debra+
Friday, December 1, 2006, 5:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Eat BTD...Healthy Body... Happier Soul 'Gatherer'
Kyosha Nim
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Love this thread...

And...hello Red Meat Eater(Igbogirl)-glad to see that you are still (lurking) around.  Hope all is going well with you.

Debra

P.S. AfricanTypeO-I think you should go for the Zebu also.


"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." C.G. Jung"

O+nonT

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Don
Friday, December 1, 2006, 7:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
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Quoted from AfricanTypeO
http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth3.htm
Milk from the African Zebu cattle is much fatter than cow's milk, which means that the Samburus consume more than twice the amount of animal fat than the average American, and yet their cholesterol is much lower, about 170 mg/dl (3.

The higher fat content may help explain why the Zebu milk serves well in their diet.

The fat part of cows milk is not a problem from a BTD standpoint. I believe the problem mainly comes from the protein (casein) and milk sugar.

Then there is also the A1 A2 issue that Henriette_Bsec has written about a few times.
Another aspect of the milk is whether the beta-casein component of the protein is A1 type or A2 type. Although it's not conclusive at this stage, research done at Lincoln University, in New Zealand, has shown correlations between A1 milk and diseases such as heart disease and Type 1 diabetes. These diseases have no such correlations with A2 milk.

Originally, all milk was A2. About 5000 years ago there was a mutation in Europe and the A1 genes spread through cow herds. These days:

Goats and sheep milk is equivalent to A2 milk, as is human milk.
Heirloom breeds tend to have more A2, newer breeds - A1.
Different countries have a different mix between the two. For example, Iceland is mainly A2, where Finland is more A1. the level of heart disease is higher in Finland.
Masai and other African cattle only produce A2 milk, which is significant when you consider that the Masai are very healthy on a diet of mainly meat, blood and fermented milk, with little heart disease.
There is some A2 milk and cream available in New Zealand, try your organic store.



FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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KimonoKat
Friday, December 1, 2006, 8:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

38% HUNTER
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Although I've heard statements here that this group of people are very healthy, I'd like to know their average life span, and what is it that they do die of (on average) and who's definition of "healthy" are they using?  Is it a one size fits all healthy?

We can speculate until the cows (or zebu's) come home about the health benefits of drinking small or large amounts of this milk for these people.  Until Dr. D tests and classifies buffalo and/or zebu milk for Type O's, it's like anything else that's not been tested: it's an unknown and at best, a neutral, and not a bennie.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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ieatmeatnlikeit
Monday, December 4, 2006, 4:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Facinating discussion here folks! Thanks for bringing this into the fold AfricanTypeO. Hearty welcome to you as well! I read the beginings of this thread the other day and was pleased to see the follow ups in all their variety. I didn't expect the levels of detail that emerged. Perhaps it should be restated that milk does not contain lectins as someone sounded as though they had that impression. Do I have that right? Now we know there are different properties to different milks from different distinct animals I just wanted to ask if Horse milk had been on anyones radar as well. I've known about (but never done any follow up on) the existance of a "breed" of horse native to the siberian region that was/is essential to the nomads there and was cited as a perfect homestead horse because of its many useful aspects including milk,felt, farming and transport. Up until this discussion and since sliding towards the BTD I've written off most milk indulgence but now...There seems to be room for inquiry! Thanks again for such an eye opening topic and thanks to the many and forthcoming responses.
Iemnli


love or perish, sing or croak,recycle or regret, write or read, think or thwim.
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resting
Monday, December 4, 2006, 7:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

probable non-sec
Sam Dan
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Hi ieatmatnlikeit,

horse milk is quite another thing!  Unlike the vast majority of milks, it has lecithin and essential fatty acids.  The original kefir yeast was made from fermented horse milk.  For many years (because both lecithin and EFA's are also integral to human milk), I presume that horse-colostrum has an activator to change digestive functions to glean eaten food (in the upcoming years) of its EFA's and digest them.

This would be very helpful to the millions of humans that were never breast fed with human-colostrum.  Obtaining such a commodity has been elusive!  [Horses are viewed as mainly large pets these days,]

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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